A petition worth signing I think.

[delilah]

The fastest way to get a positive shift in our relationship with retail is via there regulator.

I am making a massive assumption in all of this; that the people on here who are farming, wish to continue doing so. I have asked on this thread, more than once, for one of those farmers to say how this petition will help their business. Still waiting.

This petition is calling for nothing that the Breaking the Armlock Alliance didn't call for 20 years ago. Remind us, what has happened to the number of people farming in the last 20 years ? Consolidation of retail, leads to consolidation of processing, leads to consolidation of farming. Best thing Guy can do when he meets with the EFRA committee is to not mention the GFC, or the OFT, or the cartel, once.

 

[delilah]

Some big, well run business have been run into the ground by Uk retail contracts.

Stories I’ve heard about the stresses exerted therein leaving the individuals involved seriously considering ending their lives as the only way out are both sickening and terrifying.

Retail doesn’t care about anything other than £££. You could have supplied them for 40 days or 40yrs, they don’t give a shite, you’re just a supplier number on a spreadsheet and if your numbers don’t add up, they don’t care why, what pressures you’ve had, challenges you’ve overcome, you’re gone.

Good job then that this petition is going to not just bring a halt to all that, but increase the number of primary producers that the cartel source from. Winner winner.

 

[Muddyroads]

Thats what I tho

I am making a massive assumption in all of this; that the people on here who are farming, wish to continue doing so. I have asked on this thread, more than once, for one of those farmers to say how this petition will help their business. Still waiting.
.

The phrase “poking the bear” comes to mind!

 

[delilah]

Thats what I tho

The phrase “poking the bear” comes to mind!

Well, bloody hell. There isn't a week goes by without someone starting a thread on here bellyaching about the cartel. Even the threads that aren't about the cartel - RT, GFC - are about the cartel.

You would have thought that a few folks would be wanting to say how this petition - a positive initiative to bring about change whatever I may think of its chances of success - is going to help their business.

 

[Muddyroads]

Well, bloody hell. There isn't a week goes by without someone starting a thread on here bellyaching about the cartel. Even the threads that aren't about the cartel - RT, GFC - are about the cartel.

You would have thought that a few folks would be wanting to say how this petition - a positive initiative to bring about change whatever I may think of its chances of success - is going to help their business.

And risk getting their heads metaphorically shot off when raised above the parapet? No point.

 

[delilah]

And risk getting their heads metaphorically shot off when raised above the parapet? No point.

Really ? Can't believe that. It's a forum. I get called allsorts doesn't bother me one jot. If anyone is upset by being called a muppet, then all the posts on here about the snowflake generation are somewhat ironic.

 

[Dave645]

I am making a massive assumption in all of this; that the people on here who are farming, wish to continue doing so. I have asked on this thread, more than once, for one of those farmers to say how this petition will help their business. Still waiting.

This petition is calling for nothing that the Breaking the Armlock Alliance didn't call for 20 years ago. Remind us, what has happened to the number of people farming in the last 20 years ? Consolidation of retail, leads to consolidation of processing, leads to consolidation of farming. Best thing Guy can do when he meets with the EFRA committee is to not mention the GFC, or the OFT, or the cartel, once.

What will in your mind be the outcome of each of the points he made in the video if he gets them?

for me your assumption that it can not help your farming neighbours, is not true.

all of his points will make changes to the overall market. Ripples in a pond.

fake farms, this cons the public into thinking they are helping a farmer or buying some British farmers produce, this has a negative result for the industry and takes market share some of the public, may not have given them, so stealing trade from the real small farm producers.

more obvious things like changing contracted volumes at short notice clearly effect the whole market and likely even the outlets actual small farms use, you can see that? As what do they do with the crop grown but not then taken by the big retail company, they dump it on the open market the open market often the small growers are relying on. . .

then we have offers where they drop the price below COP and the negative effect on market share for other outlets, of the same produce, while the offers are on. And the publics expectation that the small farmers should be able to offer them at the same price big retail is. Again damaging to the whole market and stealing markets share from small producers or forcing them to sell at a loss. Small growers may see sales falls as normal outlets buy the produce from big retail because they are on offer.

its worst for perishable crops he mentioned heads of lettuce 100,000 heads a week then they cut the order to 80,000 head, this has what effect? the grower has 20,000 head to then dump on the open market, depressing the open market price, often to wholesalers, who then they ring around to sell them on to all there outlets, some of which may have been supplied by your small neighbours if they sell the same items that are dumped on the market. Even organic, mr Tesco will have an organic contract with a farm or wholesaler for anything they sell, that suffers the same, from the games they play.


every thing is connected they always have been in some respects because big retail have had the ability to over contract to make sure they get what they want but also have the ability to not take what they order, it actually creates a fake demand glut in the market and over supply that effects everyone.

what would a change that stops this over contracted system do, because they do not have the ability to not take what’s contracted each week from there suppliers? So the costs of over ordering have to be shouldered by big retail?

my guess is lower sized contacts where they only order what they think they will sell, and if demand surprises them then they have to look to the open market to get supples.
who fills those orders often the smaller independent farms in the system.
Even if not the wholesale price of them items will likely increase so even tiny farms get an uplift in farm gate prices.
All this from a basic shift in the way contracts are used by big retail.

 

[delilah]

If we pretend for 2 minutes that this petition will achieve its stated objectives, it will cause considerable environmental damage.

At present we are on the road towards a fully consolidated food system. Anyone who wants to know what a fully consolidated food system will look like, have a read of the OP on this thread:

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-a50.353759/

Whilst it would mean the majority of folks on here no longer farming in their own right, it does have some environmental merit for the reasons given in that post.

The opposite of a consolidated food system, is a diversified food system. Local and regional production and processing, supplying a diverse retail landscape. As with a fully consolidated system, this diversified system has environmental merit albeit through different means.

What Guy is proposing is a hybrid. Diversified production ('save our family farms') but consolidated retail (the cartel). It is, food miles wise, the worst of all Worlds. The cartel wont be remotely slow in pointing this out to the EFRA committee once Guy has had is day in court.

 

[delilah]

There is a reason Local Authorities don't bother turning down planning applications from the cartel. They know that if they do it will be resubmitted, and if they turn it down a second or third time it will be appealed to central Government, who will then grant permission. Because the politicians know that the cartel have bigger and better planning teams than any local authority. To try and stand up to them is to waste council tax income. The parallels should be apparent. You aint devising a contract where the mouse doesn't get squashed by the elephant.

 

[Dave645]

If we pretend for 2 minutes that this petition will achieve its stated objectives, it will cause considerable environmental damage.

At present we are on the road towards a fully consolidated food system. Anyone who wants to know what a fully consolidated food system will look like, have a read of the OP on this thread:

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-a50.353759/

Whilst it would mean the majority of folks on here no longer farming in their own right, it does have some environmental merit for the reasons given in that post.

The opposite of a consolidated food system, is a diversified food system. Local and regional production and processing, supplying a diverse retail landscape. As with a fully consolidated system, this diversified system has environmental merit albeit through different means.

What Guy is proposing is a hybrid. Diversified production ('save our family farms') but consolidated retail (the cartel). It is, food miles wise, the worst of all Worlds. The cartel wont be remotely slow in pointing this out to the EFRA committee once Guy has had is day in court.

why do you think, anyone is calling for consolidated retail? Can you quote where guy or anyone says that please.

What Guy is proposing is a hybrid. Diversified production ('save our family farms') but consolidated retail (the cartel). It is, food miles wise, the worst of all Worlds.

And why do you think it would end up being the worst of all worlds?

I think food miles from anything grown in the uk, will be completely over shadowed by imported food to make it a rounding error in the numbers, so while not unimportant, and over consolidation by the cartel is bad, and unlikely to get government support, think war, or terrorist attacks. That would creating massive vulnerabilities in our food chains.

so even if guy was somehow supporting that aspect ( not read or seen that) then it makes no sense to do or allow. For lots of reasons, not just what your link suggested as an idea.
A few well placed bombs and it would bring the uk to its knees.

 

[Dave645]

There is a reason Local Authorities don't bother turning down planning applications from the cartel. They know that if they do it will be resubmitted, and if they turn it down a second or third time it will be appealed to central Government, who will then grant permission. Because the politicians know that the cartel have bigger and better planning teams than any local authority. To try and stand up to them is to waste council tax income. The parallels should be apparent. You aint devising a contract where the mouse doesn't get squashed by the elephant.

laws exist, codes of practice exist, they separate the elephants from the mice all the time.
Things still happen, but courts, and arbitration sort out compensations and fines.

 

[delilah]

why do you think, anyone is calling for consolidated retail? Can you quote where guy or anyone says that please.

Er, because he is asking the cartel to play nicely. He is taking it as a given that consolidated retail is the way to go. Show me anything in all of the blurb connected to this petition that Guy wishes to challenge consolidation. On the contrary, he is seeking a way to provide the cartel with Corporate Social Responsibility legitimacy.

 

[delilah]

And why do you think it would end up being the worst of all worlds?

Because it is where we are, right now. Identical loaves of bread passing each other on our motorways, beef doing two laps of the UK before it is sold where it was born, milk that has had to go from farm to Muller to Booker to every corner shop in every corner of the country.

It is insane, it is totally unsustainable, it is why so many organisations are working to bring about change, and here comes Guy with his petition to say it is all ok if the cartel would only just play nicely.

And anyone on here who thinks this consolidation isn't relevant to their business, have a think about why RT, and now GFC, is a thing. These initiatives can only work in a consolidated food system.

 

[delilah]

laws exist, codes of practice exist, they separate the elephants from the mice all the time.
Things still happen, but courts, and arbitration sort out compensations and fines.

Then you need to show us what has changed for the better since the Breaking the Armlock Alliance did all of this 20 years ago. Nothing. Because we have allowed corporate control to hold more sway than elected representation.

And the only way to change that is to show the elected representatives how tweaks in our food system, one tweak at a time, will benefit the economy, the environment and society. Because begging to the cartel or the courts is futile.

 

[Dave645]

Er, because he is asking the cartel to play nicely. He is taking it as a given that consolidated retail is the way to go. Show me anything in all of the blurb connected to this petition that Guy wishes to challenge consolidation. On the contrary, he is seeking a way to provide the cartel with Corporate Social Responsibility legitimacy.

No that’s your interpretation.
I explained his goals will have benefits for the wider farming community.
He like me is a realist and knows, even if we get the change you want, retail will not change over night reform of legislation is key but even with that shifting away from something that delivers 95% of retailed food to the public, is not going to change in weeks or months maybe not years or decades, that realisation is key. And it’s something your not accounting for, if they will exist for years to come, even with a reform based on your plan if one exists, then you still need what guy is trying to get, or you will allow consolidation to continue. And allow big retail to continue to create over supply and distort markets. Just as they are now, we need guys reform very badly.


Even if you got your ideal solution retail will still exist, in some form with some market share, so getting a better contract arrangement is still key, it is even key for your future yet you rail against it blindly.

you want

The opposite of a consolidated food system, is a diversified food system. Local and regional production and processing, supplying a diverse retail landscape. As with a fully consolidated system, this diversified system has environmental merit albeit through different means.

Yet you haven’t explained your plan to deliver it.
Having a wish or a goal is ok, but if you plan to overhaul something that delivers 95% of retail food to the public, then you need a plan, for how this new retail world your imagining is going to over turn the existing one. Because without that and you are disparaging his attempt at reform of the existing system what are we left with?

In my eyes we are left with it just as it is, and we all know it’s not working, you keep saying that in the last 20 years it’s not worked, so guy is trying to get new reform, yet you say it’s a waste of time but you will send him the right questions to ask. . .
your all over the shop, you have great goals but don’t have any idea how to get to them in the real world.

But mean while you fight against those that are at least trying to get some relief for farmers, that have to operate in the world, as it exists now, and will exist for years to come even if you got your way, that’s what your missing and everyone else can see.

 

[Dave645]

Then you need to show us what has changed for the better since the Breaking the Armlock Alliance did all of this 20 years ago. Nothing. Because we have allowed corporate control to hold more sway than elected representation.

And the only way to change that is to show the elected representatives how tweaks in our food system, one tweak at a time, will benefit the economy, the environment and society. Because begging to the cartel or the courts is futile.

Your missing so much logic from that, he is looking to get change your telling us it’s a waste of time.
We all know the system is broken as you said the last attempt 20 years ago didn’t work, so we are trying for new change, what’s so hard to understand, as we don’t know what reform may come because it hasn’t happed yet.

He is not begging the cartel, he is going to the body that is in charge of implementing the industries code of practice and asking for changes to it.
That’s exactly what you suggested we do. Go to government and get tweaks the tweaks he wants will stop contract over supply which damages the markets for all farmers,
So again you’re all over the shop. He is after

show the elected representatives how tweaks in our food system, one tweak at a time, will benefit the economy, the environment and society

He is talking to the system that reports back to our elected officials, to get reform using the system that’s in place. No one is stopping anyone also going to do what you suggest.

 

[Dave645]

Because it is where we are, right now. Identical loaves of bread passing each other on our motorways, beef doing two laps of the UK before it is sold where it was born, milk that has had to go from farm to Muller to Booker to every corner shop in every corner of the country.

It is insane, it is totally unsustainable, it is why so many organisations are working to bring about change, and here comes Guy with his petition to say it is all ok if the cartel would only just play nicely.

And anyone on here who thinks this consolidation isn't relevant to their business, have a think about why RT, and now GFC, is a thing. These initiatives can only work in a consolidated food system.

Yep lots of problems.
Unsustainable is not True, that's only true under the current fossil fuel based system. stupid yes, needs reform yes, depletes resilience in the food chain yes.
lots of reason for reform, but not to block his attempt for reform in the way big retail are destroying the food chain with stupid contract practices.

So, what guy is trying to get, is not going to say as you suggest “it’s all ok” to what retail is doing, thats your words your interpretation, you have no evidence for that because he has not even talked to them yet, no one can have evidence of something that hasn’t happen yet, so all your saying is what you think, we can all guess but that’s now a sound base to disparage others from.

 

[Dave645]

Because it is where we are, right now. Identical loaves of bread passing each other on our motorways, beef doing two laps of the UK before it is sold where it was born, milk that has had to go from farm to Muller to Booker to every corner shop in every corner of the country.

It is insane, it is totally unsustainable, it is why so many organisations are working to bring about change, and here comes Guy with his petition to say it is all ok if the cartel would only just play nicely.

And anyone on here who thinks this consolidation isn't relevant to their business, have a think about why RT, and now GFC, is a thing. These initiatives can only work in a consolidated food system.

If in your words “it is where we are, right now”, so, why does it matter and make it worse?

his changes do not encourage consolidation any more than anything that exists right now does.

so supermarkets cannot sign overly big contracts and refuse to take what they ordered.

They cannot put fake farm named packaging on produce.

and the farm gate prices have to reflect COP and a profit margin for the farmer.

no discount to COP price or contract price to put produce on offer at the farmers expense.

I fail to see how anything there will effect what your suggesting, your just flailing about looking to justify your 20th negative post, on something that’s positive for our indusrty.

Take a breath you’re fighting the wrong people. . .

 

[delilah]

Yet you haven’t explained your plan to deliver it.

Yes I have. I answered that question pages ago, same I have answered every question put to me.

Whereas I am still waiting for you, or anyone else, to answer the one question I have asked: What is there in this petition that is going to make the big boss at any of the members of the cartel go into work on Monday morning and say "Right, as of now we are going to source from more, rather than less, farmers " ?

you keep saying that in the last 20 years it’s not worked, so guy is trying to get new reform,

I have the advantage on you in that you weren't there 20 years ago . Guy's petition is asking for the exact same things that the Breaking the Armlock Alliance asked for. I told the lentil knitters then that it was futile, history has proven me right, and so I have every right to tell Guy the same thing. The GCA cannot 'save Britain's family farms'.

I think that covers anything else you said.

 

[delilah]

Some years ago the AHDB said that the UK only needs 10 abattoirs. They didn't say 10 abattoirs for the cartel, plus 100 abattoirs for the home kill market. They said 10 abattoirs. At least they were being honest. They recognised that you can't pull an industry in two directions. You can't kill the same beast twice.

And that's the issue. We can either build a consolidated food system, or we can build a diversified food system. What you cannot do, is build a consolidated food system to suit the business model of the cartel and alongside it a diversified food system to suit the business model of those who are committed to doing things differently. Because that means niche, and for the reasons discussed up thread niche doesn't work.