A petition worth signing I think.

[Dave645]

We have done this. We have been here 20 years ago. There is nothing that Guy can learn from this exercise that we don't already know.

6k views. They can't all be Clive bots. We need folks to explain how this petition is going to help their business.

This.

https://d1hu4133i4rt3z.cloudfront.net/attachments/1155/1155117-3bd70a978b2c3d1af8f367ce6adc59f0.pdf

2.2 Is existing regulation appropriate, for example the Groceries Supply Code of Practice and the Groceries Code Adjudicator for supermarkets’ direct suppliers, as well as the Secretary of State’s powers under Part 3 of the Agriculture Act 2020? The remit of Groceries Code Adjudicator is too narrow: indirect suppliers to the supermarkets are not covered by the code of practice nor are price negotiations. This means most farmers are not protected. The fair dealing clause in the Agriculture Act 2020, if used effectively, could lead to new Statutory Codes of Practice for all sectors.

the petition is just weight, would you want 100k people to sign on to https://landworkersalliance.org.uk/your-farming-future/
if they started a petition?
they have a few thousand members but I am sure they would want support from anyone wanting to support their cause.


while you don't think his goal will help small farms, I actually think it will. your own post shows the government can see the issue, and that the GSCP or others will need to be able to do more.

doing something that will affect the farmers working inside the 95% super market share is never a bad thing. working to change that share is great but what about the ones still in the supermarkets share, it's not just a few, as most work indirectly and if legislation changes then those hidden and not in the current GSCP scope may well find that they do get protection under it later.

 

[delilah]

while you don't think his goal will help small farms, I actually think it will. your own post shows the government can see the issue, and that the GSCP or others will need to be able to do more.

You need to set out how this petition will help small farms.

Government can't see the issue, and I haven't suggested that they can. They may be able to see an issue - imbalance of power - but they can't see the way to address that imbalance. And this petition aint helping.

it's not just a few, as most work indirectly

Others have given us the numbers for carrots and pork. It is just a few. I picked those two commodities because they show where the cartel wish to get everything. And - again - this petition is doing nothing to address that.

 

[delilah]

Our neighbours are a Latvian family, growing organic veg. They are slogging their guts out.

What is in this petition for them, or the thousands upon thousands of other farms doing what, supposedly, Government and Guy alike wish to see in our food system ?

 

[Dave645]

You need to set out how this petition will help small farms.

Government can't see the issue, and I haven't suggested that they can. They may be able to see an issue - imbalance of power - but they can't see the way to address that imbalance. And this petition aint helping.



Others have given us the numbers for carrots and pork. It is just a few. I picked those two commodities because they show where the cartel wish to get everything. And - again - this petition is doing nothing to address that.

it's a shame you cannot.

what does the current numbers have to do with trying to get better terms from supermarket/Retailers? you want more suppliers with better market access, so if you get your way diversity, they will all want better contracts so, if it effects 1 farm today, but 10,000 50 years from now, all under the GSCP as is, or if its expanded, or a new replacement.
the pdf you shared shows others are telling the governments the same thing, maybe they will listen even if not it's the right door to be knocking on to get better protection for all those suppling big retailers that currently have 95% of the market share.

Our neighbours are a Latvian family, growing organic veg. They are slogging their guts out.

What is in this petition for them, or the thousands upon thousands of other farms doing what, supposedly, Government and Guy alike wish to see in our food system ?

why does that matter? if it doesn't affect them now then, they are not suppliers to a retail outlet under GSCP terms.
so, their issue is marketing, or finding someone to buy their produce, do they wish to supply a big retailer? if so then GSCP are the place to go to get protection from retailers' sharp practices.

if they don't then so what, this is not directly for them now, a few years from now they may change their mind. or the government is convinced to expand the GSCP umbrella so it does cover them. either way the if GSCP can get its remit expanded the PDF you shared said the power were lacking but to quote the pdf

2.2 Is existing regulation appropriate, for example the Groceries Supply Code of Practice and the Groceries Code Adjudicator for supermarkets’ direct suppliers, as well as the Secretary of State’s powers under Part 3 of the Agriculture Act 2020? The remit of Groceries Code Adjudicator is too narrow: indirect suppliers to the supermarkets are not covered by the code of practice nor are price negotiations. This means most farmers are not protected. The fair dealing clause in the Agriculture Act 2020, if used effectively, could lead to new Statutory Codes of Practice for all sectors.

if these changes come then even, they may find protection from the GSCP with any contract they wish to sign with a retailer.


this was an outcome from the GSCP not sure if you read it, I shared it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-help-farmers-and-growers-in-the-food-supply-chain

so, outcomes can be made from GCA dialog.

 

[delilah]

it's a shame you cannot.

what does the current numbers have to do with trying to get better terms from supermarket/Retailers? you want more suppliers with better market access, so if you get your way diversity, they will all want better contracts so, if it effects 1 farm today, but 10,000 50 years from now, all under the GSCP as is, or if its expanded, or a new replacement.
the pdf you shared shows others are telling the governments the same thing, maybe they will listen even if not it's the right door to be knocking on to get better protection for all those suppling big retailers that currently have 95% of the market share.


why does that matter? if it doesn't affect them now then, they are not suppliers to a retail outlet under GSCP terms.
so, their issue is marketing, or finding someone to buy their produce, do they wish to supply a big retailer? if so then GSCP are the place to go to get protection from retailers' sharp practices.

if they don't then so what, this is not directly for them now, a few years from now they may change their mind. or the government is convinced to expand the GSCP umbrella so it does cover them. either way the if GSCP can get its remit expanded the PDF you shared said the power were lacking but to quote the pdf

2.2 Is existing regulation appropriate, for example the Groceries Supply Code of Practice and the Groceries Code Adjudicator for supermarkets’ direct suppliers, as well as the Secretary of State’s powers under Part 3 of the Agriculture Act 2020? The remit of Groceries Code Adjudicator is too narrow: indirect suppliers to the supermarkets are not covered by the code of practice nor are price negotiations. This means most farmers are not protected. The fair dealing clause in the Agriculture Act 2020, if used effectively, could lead to new Statutory Codes of Practice for all sectors.

if these changes come then even, they may find protection from the GSCP with any contract they wish to sign with a retailer.


this was an outcome from the GSCP not sure if you read it, I shared it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-help-farmers-and-growers-in-the-food-supply-chain

so, outcomes can be made from GCA dialog.

You are advocating a sanitized version of the status quo:
- 90% of UK food retailing being controlled by the cartel, but with the cartel being nicer to their suppliers.
- 10% of UK food retailing being, by definition, niche.

There are fundamental pitfalls with your vision, to take just three:

1) Where carrots, and pork, and eggs, have already got to, other commodities will follow. There will be bugger all suppliers needed to supply the cartel. Their very business model is based on consolidation, on rationalization, on centralization.

2) Niche doesn't work. Niche means critical mass goes, and once critical mass goes then the infrastructure goes, and once the infrastructure goes everyone is f@cked. Exhibit a: Abattoirs. You can build up as strong a customer base of loyal customers for your beef as you wish, but once the last abattoir goes you shut up shop.

3) By obsessing over the needs of the small and ever shrinking number of suppliers to the cartel, we neglect the myriad of ways in which we could be supporting a far greater number of farming businesses. Who has been and asked our Latvian neighbours how their business could be supported ? Nobody, that's who.

 

[Suffolk Serf]

You are advocating a sanitized version of the status quo:
- 90% of UK food retailing being controlled by the cartel, but with the cartel being nicer to their suppliers.
- 10% of UK food retailing being, by definition, niche.

There are fundamental pitfalls with your vision, to take just three:

1) Where carrots, and pork, and eggs, have already got to, other commodities will follow. There will be bugger all suppliers needed to supply the cartel. Their very business model is based on consolidation, on rationalization, on centralization.

2) Niche doesn't work. Niche means critical mass goes, and once critical mass goes then the infrastructure goes, and once the infrastructure goes everyone is f@cked. Exhibit a: Abattoirs. You can build up as strong a customer base of loyal customers for your beef as you wish, but once the last abattoir goes you shut up shop.

3) By obsessing over the needs of the small and ever shrinking number of suppliers to the cartel, we neglect the myriad of ways in which we could be supporting a far greater number of farming businesses. Who has been and asked our Latvian neighbours how their business could be supported ? Nobody, that's who.

An answer for some is to work with the "cartel". Which is, I suppose, what I have done. I now breed pigs as an "agistor" for a very large, independent, pig producer. Just like "bed and breakfast" rearing and finishing. I provide most of the equipment, land (rented) labour and day to day management. They provide pigs, feed, veterinary inputs. I get paid a fee per pig produced, whatever the state of the market, If I do a good job I get paid very well. They get pigs bred for them without the hassles of day to day management and staffing, with someone with "skin in the game" doing all of that. We both want and need the breeding herd to perform well.
This type of arrangement has been around many years now and I can't think why I didn't do it ages ago, instead of hanging on to some illusory principle.

 

[Dave645]

You are advocating a sanitized version of the status quo:
- 90% of UK food retailing being controlled by the cartel, but with the cartel being nicer to their suppliers.
- 10% of UK food retailing being, by definition, niche.

no I am not, I am being realistic as that's the starting point we are at.

1) Where carrots, and pork, and eggs, have already got to, other commodities will follow. There will be bugger all suppliers needed to supply the cartel. Their very business model is based on consolidation, on rationalization, on centralization.

yes, that could happen, unless more farmers feel able to enter into contracts to supply them, or more farmers are able to get fair trading contracts with big retail. or more farmers get protection under an extended umbrella of GSCP. if not then what you say may happen but that's not to say what they are trying to do has no merit. in reality it may drive a reversal in the trend if they get better contract terms.

2) Niche doesn't work. Niche means critical mass goes, and once critical mass goes then the infrastructure goes, and once the infrastructure goes everyone is f@cked. Exhibit a: Abattoirs. You can build up as strong a customer base of loyal customers for your beef as you wish, but once the last abattoir goes you shut up shop.

how am I advocating for that? how is anything this thread is about, is pushing for that? that is not inside this issue so why bring it up?

3) By obsessing over the needs of the small and ever shrinking number of suppliers to the cartel, we neglect the myriad of ways in which we could be supporting a far greater number of farming businesses. Who has been and asked our Latvian neighbours how their business could be supported ? Nobody, that's who.

no, that's your short-sighted blinkered thinking.
no one is saying your vision should not be encouraged, and no aspect of anything I have said stops anyone doing anything they like to remedy this.
more than one tract can be made at any one time. so that's a very strange position take.
doing a referral to the GCA is not stopping progress to support others in other ways.

the more ways we try to tackle the multiple problems the better.

I have said I like the COOP system where small farms can work together, but because we currently have retail holding 95% of the market, that then means any COOP's will end up dealing with supermarkets or large retail to some degree. which brings them back to needing extended protection in any contracts they want to make, so all the way back to the GCA.

breaking big retails hold on sales is not inside any current action I have seen, if there was, I would sign up. to be realistic without government intervention, I doubt it will ever happen.

how do you change consumers shopping habits? as that's what drives their market share.

no government department I have seen will try to break up supermarkets or big retail. so, trying to get better fairer trading partnerships with retail is key for all levels even if you cannot see that. and currently there is no better place to do that than through the GCA on this topic.

feel free to start your petition to take to a government department of your choice, on a topic of your choice.

 

[delilah]

An answer for some is to work with the "cartel". Which is, I suppose, what I have done. I now breed pigs as an "agistor" for a very large, independent, pig producer. Just like "bed and breakfast" rearing and finishing. I provide most of the equipment, land (rented) labour and day to day management. They provide pigs, feed, veterinary inputs. I get paid a fee per pig produced, whatever the state of the market, If I do a good job I get paid very well. They get pigs bred for them without the hassles of day to day management and staffing, with someone with "skin in the game" doing all of that. We both want and need the breeding herd to perform well.
This type of arrangement has been around many years now and I can't think why I didn't do it ages ago, instead of hanging on to some illusory principle.

Then we need to be presented with the numbers. Of autonomous farming businesses needed in the UK under that model. Because the vast majority of posters on here will be labouring under the illusion that they have a future. Best they get told now: You're f@cked. Nice little Christmas present that.

 

[delilah]

no I am not,

Yes you are. You confirm it in the rest of your post. You see no point in trying to influence market share. You say that Government wont do it, and you say that the shopper wont stand it. You are wrong on all of that.

Government intervenes in the food chain at every link. That is its job. It has just released funding for our smallest abattoirs. That is an intervention in the food chain. Government will do anything asked of it, if it is explained how that measure is good for the economy, for society and for the environment.

no, that's your short-sighted blinkered thinking.

I have explained how we have been here 20 years ago. I was thinking about this sh!t for years before that. We can disagree, but don't go calling it short sighted, I have been watching and warning on this slow motion car crash for decades.

 

[Dave645]

Yes you are. You confirm it in the rest of your post. You see no point in trying to influence market share. You say that Government wont do it, and you say that the shopper wont stand it. You are wrong on all of that.

no again you're injecting your opinion rather than reading my post, I actually mention another option COOP's etc. I even said I would happily support any push for change.
highlighted, again no I didn't, I actually said

how do you change consumers shopping habits? as that's what drives their market share.

Government intervenes in the food chain at every link. That is its job. It has just released funding for our smallest abattoirs. That is an intervention in the food chain. Government will do anything asked of it, if it is explained how that measure is good for the economy, for society and for the environment.

yes, it does but not by telling shoppers where to buy stuff. or legislating to force supermarkets to give up market share, you can try, zero wrong with that, but unless there was only one supermarket, I doubt it.
what you need is a new retail outlet that works for small farmers that can in some way, pull market share away from big retail, but again, you know that the public make their choice where to shop don't you? these box scheme seem to be working and coop farming groups can supply and run them, but getting the government to block big retail's ability to sell, the same products, as well seem a long shot.
better to force retail to give farmers a fair price as that puts up retails in store prices, or forces retail to take smaller margins, so maybe making box schemes more competitive on price.

have explained how we have been here 20 years ago. I was thinking about this sh!t for years before that. We can disagree, but don't go calling it short sighted, I have been watching and warning on this slow motion car crash for decades.

3) By obsessing over the needs of the small and ever shrinking number of suppliers to the cartel, we neglect the myriad of ways in which we could be supporting a far greater number of farming businesses. Who has been and asked our Latvian neighbours how their business could be supported ? Nobody, that's who.

That comment was, just plain wrong, short sighted was the least it was.

In no way is this attempt to get change obsessing, or impacting, anyone trying to do other things, and create what you describe as neglect.

your Neighbours are welcome to join the BFU and try to push for change with anyone that they think can help them, in the name of the BFU.

I find it strange you don't want this meeting with the GCA or for them to try, even if it's doomed to fail, because what happen 20 years ago is not set in stone to repeat, as we have just had issues, with our food chains and its clear big retail are the culprits. so now is likely a very good time to push for change on all topics.
yours and this one. as both could deliver benefit's if they get government support.

it's never been, this instead of that, it's been this and anything else we can think to do.
would you not be better spending your time running your campaign, rather than disparaging other people's campaigns to get change, rather than trying to justify your strange position with me.

 

[delilah]

yes, that could happen, unless more farmers feel able to enter into contracts to supply them, or more farmers are able to get fair trading contracts with big retail. or more farmers get protection under an extended umbrella of GSCP. if not then what you say may happen but that's not to say what they are trying to do has no merit. in reality it may drive a reversal in the trend if they get better contract terms.

Have read that three times to try and get my head round it. Struggling tbh.

To take the Tesco carrots as an example. We have been told that 5 growers currently meet their needs. You are saying that if there is more protection for growers/ fairer contracts, then more growers will come forward to supply Tesco, and Tesco will embrace this, to quote you directly, 'reversal in the trend'.

I hope to hell that Guy isn't thinking along those lines, because it is utterly delusional. The polar opposite will happen. It isn't just Guy gets to meet with these MP's you know. The cartel will tell them, bluntly, that any attempt to give growers more protection will lead to them further consolidating their supply chains. They may or may not mean that, it doesn't matter, the point is they hold the sway hand. The tipping point of power from elected representative to private corporation has been passed. Which is why expecting anything from the GCA is a pipe dream.

 

[delilah]

would you not be better spending your time running your campaign, rather than disparaging other people's campaigns to get change, rather than trying to justify your strange position with me.

I'm not trying to justify anything to you. It's for Guy and others, don't run out on me, it's an important discussion. .
The argument in favour of this petition has gone from:
- Lets make the cartel be nice to farmers, to
- Lets make the GCA make the cartel be nice to farmers, to
- Lets make the GCA make the OFT make the cartel be nice to farmers, to
- It's probably a waste of time, but we need to do something.
Getting there .

 

[Dave645]

Have read that three times to try and get my head round it. Struggling tbh.

To take the Tesco carrots as an example. We have been told that 5 growers currently meet their needs. You are saying that if there is more protection for growers/ fairer contracts, then more growers will come forward to supply Tesco, and Tesco will embrace this, to quote you directly, 'reversal in the trend'.

I hope to hell that Guy isn't thinking along those lines, because it is utterly delusional. The polar opposite will happen. It isn't just Guy gets to meet with these MP's you know. The cartel will tell them, bluntly, that any attempt to give growers more protection will lead to them further consolidating their supply chains. They may or may not mean that, it doesn't matter, the point is they hold the sway hand. The tipping point of power from elected representative to private corporation has been passed. Which is why expecting anything from the GCA is a pipe dream.

There are a lot more than growers of carrots in the uk, 11,000ha are grown, that’s 6-7 times that area of land for a sensible rotation. So 66-77,000 ha in carrot production.

the carrot growers website says it’s 9,000 ha in production so at a guess the other 2,000 ha are in smaller growers hands or none affiliated growers or someone is incorrect.

Some grower groups on the carrot website, are coop groups so smaller growers banding together to market their crops. Which is what you to see, but they still have to deal with big retail. Even if they have their own outlets.
To get the reform you seek, which is a worthy goal, requires either creating a new outlet well supported by the public and they vote with there money to support it. To drive down supermarkets market share or try to get reform in the way super markets deal with farmers so more are inclined to deal with them, and build out coops to drive farm gate prices even if big retail don’t play fair. There are no simple solutions to the cartel, but we can keep chipping away.

as for further consolidation, the 5 grower you mention will not be the number used by Tesco, as they will also have a wholesaler packing for them on demand.
This is to let them exploit there contracts with farmers when the open market prices for carrots are lower than contract prices, if you watch the video you will know this is one point guy will bring up, they use fake farm names to do so.
I expect you know how this exploit works so ,I will not explain it.

As for them further consolidating because of a new code of practise if one is made, then I doubt it, I doubt any one farm could do it alone, even for one big retailer, and zero chance for the country. At best bigger coop groups would maybe make it look like less suppliers are used but the money and risks to the food chain the supermarkets enjoy would only increase.I doubt they would risk it, they enjoy having A number of farmers to mess with and exploit. And the risk if one had a crop fail or went bust would also not make it sensible to do. That’s not to say they are not stupidly short sighted but half the reason they want to look at the farmers books is to make sure they don’t go bust on them, in the contract year they are entering, the other is to work out how much they can push their exploitation.

retail only holds sway hand, as long as they are seen to provide a strong supply chain and deliver food at competitive prices to the public. That’s not what they have been seen to be doing, the pdf you shared shows that info has already been shared with government and had recommendations made to government to strengthen the code of practices use by them in dealing with farmers, no reform is yet been seen.

 

[Dave645]

I'm not trying to justify anything to you. It's for Guy and others, don't run out on me, it's an important discussion. .
The argument in favour of this petition has gone from:
- Lets make the cartel be nice to farmers, to
- Lets make the GCA make the cartel be nice to farmers, to
- Lets make the GCA make the OFT make the cartel be nice to farmers, to
- It's probably a waste of time, but we need to do something.
Getting there .

I am where I started, let guy approach the GCA and see what happens. No change ever comes about, unless someone tries to change things.
I also believe in positive thinking, and that it can lead to positive outcomes.

I also believe common sense can win out.

 

[delilah]

There are a lot more than growers of carrots in the uk, 11,000ha are grown, that’s 6-7 times that area of land for a sensible rotation. So 66-77,000 ha in carrot production.

the carrot growers website says it’s 9,000 ha in production so at a guess the other 2,000 ha are in smaller growers hands or none affiliated growers or someone is incorrect.

Some grower groups on the carrot website, are coop groups so smaller growers banding together to market their crops. Which is what you to see, but they still have to deal with big retail. Even if they have their own outlets.
To get the reform you seek, which is a worthy goal, requires either creating a new outlet well supported by the public and they vote with there money to support it. To drive down supermarkets market share or try to get reform in the way super markets deal with farmers so more are inclined to deal with them, and build out coops to drive farm gate prices even if big retail don’t play fair. There are no simple solutions to the cartel, but we can keep chipping away.

as for further consolidation, the 5 grower you mention will not be the number used by Tesco, as they will also have a wholesaler packing for them on demand.
This is to let them exploit there contracts with farmers when the open market prices for carrots are lower than contract prices, if you watch the video you will know this is one point guy will bring up, they use fake farm names to do so.
I expect you know how this exploit works so ,I will not explain it.

As for them further consolidating because of a new code of practise if one is made, then I doubt it, I doubt any one farm could do it alone, even for one big retailer, and zero chance for the country. At best bigger coop groups would maybe make it look like less suppliers are used but the money and risks to the food chain the supermarkets enjoy would only increase.I doubt they would risk it, they enjoy having A number of farmers to mess with and exploit. And the risk if one had a crop fail or went bust would also not make it sensible to do. That’s not to say they are not stupidly short sighted but half the reason they want to look at the farmers books is to make sure they don’t go bust on them, in the contract year they are entering, the other is to work out how much they can push their exploitation.

retail only holds sway hand, as long as they are seen to provide a strong supply chain and deliver food at competitive prices to the public. That’s not what they have been seen to be doing, the pdf you shared shows that info has already been shared with government and had recommendations made to government to strengthen the code of practices use by them in dealing with farmers, no reform is yet been seen.

You do manage to use a hell of a lot of words without actually saying anything. Ever considered a career in politics ?

Less than 5.

There is nothing in this petition that will increase that number. Nothing.

 

[delilah]

I am where I started, let guy approach the GCA and see what happens. No change ever comes about, unless someone tries to change things.
I also believe in positive thinking, and that it can lead to positive outcomes.

I also believe common sense can win out.

I have accurately summarized your changed views over the course of your posts. I think 'flailing' covers it.

Positive thinking, 100%. Hence I will send Guy a list of positive proposals to put to the EFRA committee. Asking the cartel to be nice to farmers wont be in there.

 

[melted welly]

There is nothing in this petition that will increase that number. Nothing.

I never said there was.

 

[delilah]

I never said there was.

No, sorry, that was for Dave, he has a theory that making the cartel offer fairer contracts will simultaneously lead to them sourcing from more farmers.

 

[melted welly]

No, sorry, that was for Dave, he has a theory that making the cartel offer fairer contracts will simultaneously lead to them sourcing from more farmers.

Some big, well run business have been run into the ground by Uk retail contracts.

Stories I’ve heard about the stresses exerted therein leaving the individuals involved seriously considering ending their lives as the only way out are both sickening and terrifying.

Retail doesn’t care about anything other than £££. You could have supplied them for 40 days or 40yrs, they don’t give a shite, you’re just a supplier number on a spreadsheet and if your numbers don’t add up, they don’t care why, what pressures you’ve had, challenges you’ve overcome, you’re gone.

 

[Dave645]

I have accurately summarized your changed views over the course of your posts. I think 'flailing' covers it.

Positive thinking, 100%. Hence I will send Guy a list of positive proposals to put to the EFRA committee. Asking the cartel to be nice to farmers wont be in there.

Lol, I know my own mind you saying different is your personality shining through. And this from the person that has made some very negative statements then made false statements to defend them, and other very strange posts on this threads topic.

You have been a paragon of negativity throughout. The best I can say is you have been consistently negative.
It’s almost like you have a personality where you need all the control, people say it’s, because they think others will just mess things up, or wasting time. Some call people like that, control freaks.

Case in point you’re sending him a big list of stuff for him to ask. . .
did he ask for your input, after you offered it???

you don’t have a cohesive plan, on how to fix the problems, nothing you have suggested would remotely do that. Yet you feel more than able to tell other people that they are wasting their time supporting this petition. As the petition is in your eyes is.

This petition is a crock of sh!t.

That about sums up your position for this entire thread. So why keep posting?

At this point I am now more convinced his approach has merit, After reading your posts and reading up on the topic. The fastest way to get a positive shift in our relationship with retail is via there regulator. What comes from it will be interesting to watch.