Who's bottled it ?

[B'o'B]

On our land, we always planned, just before drilling, if we ploughed earlier there was a very good chance it would either be too wet or too dry when we came to drill.
It was a very efficient system, 5 furrow reversible plough followed by a 4m combi, with front cultivator pass. Trouble being 30 acres was a big day and we supped a sh1t load of diesel.
When we went to tillage + combi that went up to 40+ using a lot less diesel.
With the Vaddy we can put 2 cultivators on in the morning, then drop one on to the drill and comfortably do 50 acres a day.
DD we're back down to 30, but with the option to double shift and use even less diesel.

What DD are you using to drop down to 30a a day?
I’m using a 30 year old 100hp tractor and a 4.2m Dale drill knocking out 70a in a 12h day. Admittedly we are on light land which is generally gently rolling

 

[alomy75]

ah, if so in that case no way would I consider dd (in an agreement) this coming autumn as reckon we will have to do some if not more sub soiling and already in a 3 yr agreement. ( hoped we could just add to existing if practical ) started nov23 and dont want to have 2 running at the same time if possible and want them all to end at same time due to my older age.

I’m pretty sure there will be allowance to low disturbance subsoil. It often came up in discussions on the sfi pilot…

 

[Renaultman]

What DD are you using to drop down to 30a a day?
I’m using a 30 year old 100hp tractor and a 4.2m Dale drill knocking out 70a in a 12h day. Admittedly we are on light land which is generally gently rolling

3m Simtech, we can go faster but it's hard on points and moves too much soil.

 

[Renaultman]

I’m pretty sure there will be allowance to low disturbance subsoil. It often came up in discussions on the sfi pilot…

I've said else where, I have an ST bar with low disturbance legs on I am tempted to try it in front of the drill for OSR and if it works, I might be tempted to use it in other situations.
Ideally I could do with something similar on the front linkage, whether I make something or not I'm not sure.

 

[Flatland guy]

It will be fixed in place for the 3 year term of the agreement.

Temporary Grass looks like it will be included so long as it’s not for more than 2 years of the agreement.

Have you seen the rulebook? You certainly seem to have some confidence in your statement.

 

[alomy75]

I've said else where, I have an ST bar with low disturbance legs on I am tempted to try it in front of the drill for OSR and if it works, I might be tempted to use it in other situations.
Ideally I could do with something similar on the front linkage, whether I make something or not I'm not sure.

This I think will be harder for them to write guidance about than the drills. I assume you mean the Simba/Great Plains LD leg which was available for the st bar? In a subsoiler that leg would be fine but in an ST bar with sprung loading does it then become a cultivator?! Similarly a LD subsoiler run 2 inches deep would disturb as much as a topdown but run at 10” deep would not. There’s going to be some interesting wording that’s for sure. Probably why it’s taking so long to be released!

 

[Renaultman]

This I think will be harder for them to write guidance about than the drills. I assume you mean the Simba/Great Plains LD leg which was available for the st bar? In a subsoiler that leg would be fine but in an ST bar with sprung loading does it then become a cultivator?! Similarly a LD subsoiler run 2 inches deep would disturb as much as a topdown but run at 10” deep would not. There’s going to be some interesting wording that’s for sure. Probably why it’s taking so long to be released!

So, if I mounted LD legs on a spring type system it wouldn't be allowed, but if it were a fixed system it may be?
Plan B would be to use 3 LD legs on the front press.

 

[B'o'B]

Have you seen the rulebook? You certainly seem to have some confidence in your statement.

I have seen parts of the current draft of the SFI24 document.

What I have seen could well be subject to change before final publication, but I think it will be broadly pretty near the mark.

 

[alomy75]

So, if I mounted LD legs on a spring type system it wouldn't be allowed, but if it were a fixed system it may be?
Plan B would be to use 3 LD legs on the front press.

Who knows

 

[Two Tone]

I'm really interested in your experiences over past few years. Couple of questions if I could be cheeky to ask....

1. Do you think low disturbance sub-soiling might help in years 3+4?

2. How do you feel black grass control is going with DD? Better than plough based, or worse? Maybe too early to say.


Yorkshire wolds there's farmers who can get a DD grant for purchase of machine, soil they can guarantee to DD successfully, claim SFI DD payment, drill in late autumn to avoid autumn insecticides, claim SFI insecticide payment, yield 4.5t. Guess that's why land's so expensive up there. Not jealousy, just how it is, the farms/land is different.

Down where I am, need a weather forecast crystal ball, need to drill early to beat the weather, then need to spray with insecticide, daren't practice DD for fear of waterlogging (although happy to learn from others that it could be possible). All generalisations, and would consider DD if think it could work, although can't afford to risk poor crops. Every inch of 260 acres needs to be productive. Conversely, maybe we need to have our overheads reduced as much as possible.

SFI DD and no insecticide payments can be a postcode lottery.

Grass or legume fallow in our rotation really helps soil structure and ability to drill a little later into autumn with greater chance of success.

Photo of plough and combi 25th Oct following legume fallow (equally, we've some heavy low lying patches which have flooded off)

View attachment 1178842


Agree, I hate ploughing and power harrowing, although we do do it as an almost guaranteed establishment method and one lot of kit on a small farm. Vast majority of farm we can get away with single pass with ph.

Iirc you built your own DD tine drill a few years back?? How many years you been doing DD now? If you don't mind me asking? And how's it going?

1. Yes, on the heavier land, LD subsoiling will almost certainly help, but not just in years 3&4. That wall will still be there but hopefully not so bad.

I’m told that it a bit like the Take-all barrier and that once you are through it soil structure should improve enough to see yields return to a satisfactory level.

2. This last back end and Winter have been a huge problem with BG control, though it didn’t really manifest itself until the end of March. It is lack of crop competition that has caused it.

The Jury is very much out as to whether I can get it back under control with continued use of DD or might have to return to a plough based system. Ploughing just the once to bury the BG seed that is returned to the soil surface, then back to DD.


You cannot delay drilling as the crop will not give sufficient competition to give the BG a big enough headache.
So I’m going to up my seed rate to IRO 220kgs/ha on wheat.
Hybrid Barleys need to drill only 3.5 - 4ha/bag instead of the standard 5, unless on light land.
To that end I’m trying some Sensation Conventional 6 row Winter Barley (also believed to act as a BG suppressant) to FS and a drill it at least 190kgs/ha.
The royalty on this variety is paid/ha, not/tonne.

As you can see, it all takes a lot of thinking about.
I’m frightened of growing Spring crops here. 4 out of 5 years, they are crap! If you DD, it is virtually a must that you will need a cover crop during the winter.

 

[Two Tone]

Do you think you (I) can be an opportunistic DDr using min till and even ploughing, if you believe it is required, or will you undo any good you have already done by reverting to cultivation.

My progression to Min till went one pass OSR establishment, I won't call it DD but some might, then min till back in to wheat, then plough combi often oats, another wheat then back into OSR
TBH it worked really well, but the desire to reduce costs, save time and hopefully improve soil has lead me to DD.
I don't like big heavy drills or any other equipment so opted for a 3m mounted Simtech, with which I am in my 2nd year (honeymoon period) I haven't direct drilled everything yet and working on a field by field basis.
I think the tines are possibly moving too much soil, but I have got wheat to grow in very difficult conditions, which I attribute to the T sem tines, I'm not sure whether discs would have been as successful

I suspect you don’t have Blackgrass (yet!)?

There will always be the purists who say that you will undo all the good you have done if you start intermixing DD with Min-till and ploughing.
Well, on a lot of land it isn’t that simple and sometimes you have to do these things.
I think @ajd132 is one who has realised this, especially where he needs to grow Spring Barley.
And I think he is right.
A lot of DD’er won’t though!

If the Government want us to help them achieve their Net-Zero target with DD, they need to ensure we can stay in business to do so. Which will mean that they and we need to be able to be flexible.

 

[Two Tone]

Why would anyone want to plough truly heavy land,

Blackgrass?

 

[Adeptandy]

Blackgrass?

No help here, just ploughs the last lot up that was buried

 

[Two Tone]

N fert is the elephant in the room for any conventional farmer let alone direct drillers, who according to posts on here may actually use more N. At least with mixed farming the N cycle is within the same parish and the mixed farmers have a method of resting and restoring land that doesn’t require taxpayers coughing up for bird food. I don’t have a problem with policy makers wanting to encourage DD, if that’s what they think is right, but they should also consider the best way to get there. Is a grant for a drill, followed by the AIA, followed by an acreage payment for each pass of that drill simply too generous?

Actually, I use less N.
It doesn’t leach so much. (The land always travels much better too!)
The straw will never be as tall or thick, so it doesn’t need as much N as the conventional stuff.
RB209 is at least 20% to much in this land conventionally and 30% if we DD it.

 

[farmerm]

I believe my neighbour is selling his direct drill... near zero establishment last autumn and was forced to whole crop a chunk the summer before due to uncontrollable grass weeds.... not that my results are all that much better...

 

[Two Tone]

I have chatted with steve Townshend at soil first and attend a very interesting. Meeting they held locally. And hopefully with his help we will get it right.
One of my problems is my brother doesn't want to understand the process involved. Doesn't believe in chopping straw just thinks it is lost income.
I just get look next door how good his crops look what are you messing about with dd for.
As we feed every thing it's not only lost yeld it's the fact it has to be replaced with purchased wheat.
We use 40 /50t a week

My brother-in-law lives at Aiskew, right beside Bedale and I’d gladly swap farming here to farm the land there.
I’d be DD’ing everything there, every year and twice every Sunday!

Steve is semi-retired now. He certainly calls a spade a spade, doesn’t he!

 

[Two Tone]

On our land, we always planned, just before drilling, if we ploughed earlier there was a very good chance it would either be too wet or too dry when we came to drill.
It was a very efficient system, 5 furrow reversible plough followed by a 4m combi, with front cultivator pass. Trouble being 30 acres was a big day and we supped a sh1t load of diesel.
When we went to tillage + combi that went up to 40+ using a lot less diesel.
With the Vaddy we can put 2 cultivators on in the morning, then drop one on to the drill and comfortably do 50 acres a day.
DD we're back down to 30, but with the option to double shift and use even less diesel.

Hence, always buy the widest DD drill you can afford.
Even the time of the day you drill, can sometimes make a hell of a difference to it success, or lack of!

 

[Renaultman]

Hence, always buy the widest DD drill you can afford.
Even the time of the day you drill, can sometimes make a hell of a difference to it success, or lack of!

That was the widest, I could afford.

 

[B'o'B]

3m Simtech, we can go faster but it's hard on points and moves too much soil.

I have to confess I do tend to push the upper limits on forward speed with our drill to get 70a done. Using RTK GPS to drill between the rows of stubble has helped alleviate the worst effects of soil throw to a large extent though.

I’m just in the process of moving from a 4.2m drill to an 8m drill (once I have a tractor that will pull it!) so I will be looking to drop forward speed considerably now I have more capacity to get over the land.

 

[DrWazzock]

Hence, always buy the widest DD drill you can afford.
Even the time of the day you drill, can sometimes make a hell of a difference to it success, or lack of!

Yes it’s almost like working with setting concrete here in a usual spring. Usually 12 hours between too sticky and smearing and too hard and running on top on the real clay.
You’ve a much bigger window even if it’s only been cultivated slightly. That’s why we lightly disc in the autumn prior to spring “direct driling”. The small weathered clods on too dry and crumble nicely and give you that bit of tilth for seed to soil contact rather than slot you can’t close.
Autumn is more difficult as it’s getting wetter not drier and there’s lots more fresh toxic chopped straw about. It’s much more likely to drown after drilling though it’s worked in drier years after beans or OSR here but it’s never worked following cereals with autumn cereals largely because of the amount of chopped straw.