Who's bottled it ?

[alomy75]

I have to confess I do tend to push the upper limits on forward speed with our drill to get 70a done. Using RTK GPS to drill between the rows of stubble has helped alleviate the worst effects of soil throw to a large extent though.

I’m just in the process of moving from a 4.2m drill to an 8m drill (once I have a tractor that will pull it!) so I will be looking to drop forward speed considerably now I have more capacity to get over the land.

You use a dale and a 3350 don’t you? Apologies if I’ve confused you with someone else. What drill are you going to?

 

[Two Tone]

That was the widest, I could afford.

Same here!

I think I’m right in that these massive grants to buy DD drills are only available on new drills.
This seems crazy insofar that it screws the 2nd hand market up.
And it means that the big boys will take advantage the most.

Weavings have so many orders for grant aided drills it is unbelievable!
Even they suggest that the grants are completely screwing the 2nd hand market up.

Again, they are selling loads of G&F versions, knowing full well that most will never have fertiliser put in them.
This to me suggests that the whole thing is a massive con and that the money should be used for better, more Sustainable projects

 

[B'o'B]

You use a dale and a 3350 don’t you? Apologies if I’ve confused you with someone else. What drill are you going to?

No, you have me bang to rights!

New (to me) drill is a Dale Eco L, so not a million miles difference, just 25 odd years of improvements, plus a mounted following harrow and a Stocks Turbo-jet applicator and Mini-jet pelleter mounted on it as well.

 

[ajd132]

I suspect you don’t have Blackgrass (yet!)?

There will always be the purists who say that you will undo all the good you have done if you start intermixing DD with Min-till and ploughing.
Well, on a lot of land it isn’t that simple and sometimes you have to do these things.
I think @ajd132 is one who has realised this, especially where he needs to grow Spring Barley.
And I think he is right.
A lot of DD’er won’t though!

If the Government want us to help them achieve their Net-Zero target with DD, they need to ensure we can stay in business to do so. Which will mean that they and we need to be able to be flexible.

Just view cultivation as an input and not a system Now. If there’s good reasoning and payback then do it.
crap crops are worse for soil than a cultivation, I’ve seen it. Still aim to dd as much as we can which is probably 70%.

 

[Adeptandy]

Same here!

I think I’m right in that these massive grants to buy DD drills are only available on new drills.
This seems crazy insofar that it screws the 2nd hand market up.
And it means that the big boys will take advantage the most.

Weavings have so many orders for grant aided drills it is unbelievable!
Even they suggest that the grants are completely screwing the 2nd hand market up.

Again, they are selling loads of G&F versions, knowing full well that most will never have fertiliser put in them.
This to me suggests that the whole thing is a massive con and that the money should be used for better, more Sustainable projects

Not all the big boys are having a go at getting one

 

[alomy75]

No, you have me bang to rights!

New (to me) drill is a Dale Eco L, so not a million miles difference, just 25 odd years of improvements, plus a mounted following harrow and a Stocks Turbo-jet applicator and Mini-jet pelleter mounted on it as well.

Is that the dale version of the seed hawk? We used to have a 6m dale seedhawk. It was very worn but did a great job. Depth control was spot on which is usually the downfall of tine drills. I note the new Sprinter SL is very seedhawk-esk in its design but the Dale had the weight behind it to push those tines in. I assume you can still buy a vaderstad seedhawk? Always surprises me they’re not marketed more…

 

[Punch]

IIRC, he was talking about a 3 metre grain and ferts version.
Freely admitting that nobody is ever likely to use the fert section for ferts, but the way the grants work, you might as well have it virtually for free!

Just about the very last thing I’d ever want to do is put grain and ferts down the same spout/coulter of any drill, but especially so any Direct drill.
It is absolutely crazy thing to do FFS!

Can you explain why that’s a crazy thing to do. Most DD advocates I’ve read on here seem to say use fert down the spout (esp in spring)?

 

[Adeptandy]

Same here!

I think I’m right in that these massive grants to buy DD drills are only available on new drills.
This seems crazy insofar that it screws the 2nd hand market up.
And it means that the big boys will take advantage the most.

Weavings have so many orders for grant aided drills it is unbelievable!
Even they suggest that the grants are completely screwing the 2nd hand market up.

Again, they are selling loads of G&F versions, knowing full well that most will never have fertiliser put in them.
This to me suggests that the whole thing is a massive con and that the money should be used for better, more Sustainable projects

Simon had been pushing G&F versions as you basically get the F part free

 

[alomy75]

Can you explain why that’s a crazy thing to do. Most DD advocates I’ve read on here seem to say use fert down the spout (esp in spring)?

Got to be careful where it lands. Depending what fert you’re placing; get it too close and it will scorch the emerging seedling.

 

[Spud]

How many dd guys have gone cultivating?
Out next door neighbours practices a full range of cultivating and has 95% crop cover after a hard winter we dd a majority of ours and a currently re drilling 50% .cultivating a fair bit as the top is solid from rain.
Any one else feal like abandoning dd and practicing a more conventional approach?

You don't have to be one or the other, it's not a religion!
Our direct drill is as much a strategic choice as the plough and combi - it's whichever will successfully establish a viable crop at the lowest cost on the day and down the season

 

[Drillman]

I'm really interested in your experiences over past few years. Couple of questions if I could be cheeky to ask....

1. Do you think low disturbance sub-soiling might help in years 3+4?

2. How do you feel black grass control is going with DD? Better than plough based, or worse? Maybe too early to say.


Yorkshire wolds there's farmers who can get a DD grant for purchase of machine, soil they can guarantee to DD successfully, claim SFI DD payment, drill in late autumn to avoid autumn insecticides, claim SFI insecticide payment, yield 4.5t. Guess that's why land's so expensive up there. Not jealousy, just how it is, the farms/land is different.

Down where I am, need a weather forecast crystal ball, need to drill early to beat the weather, then need to spray with insecticide, daren't practice DD for fear of waterlogging (although happy to learn from others that it could be possible). All generalisations, and would consider DD if think it could work, although can't afford to risk poor crops. Every inch of 260 acres needs to be productive. Conversely, maybe we need to have our overheads reduced as much as possible.

SFI DD and no insecticide payments can be a postcode lottery.

Grass or legume fallow in our rotation really helps soil structure and ability to drill a little later into autumn with greater chance of success.

Photo of plough and combi 25th Oct following legume fallow (equally, we've some heavy low lying patches which have flooded off)

View attachment 1178842


Agree, I hate ploughing and power harrowing, although we do do it as an almost guaranteed establishment method and one lot of kit on a small farm. Vast majority of farm we can get away with single pass with ph.

Iirc you built your own DD tine drill a few years back?? How many years you been doing DD now? If you don't mind me asking? And how's it going?

Some wold farmers prefer to be drilled by end of sept to get good establishment, need insecticide and 3.5 ton is a good yield

 

[Punch]

Got to be careful where it lands. Depending what fert you’re placing; get it too close and it will scorch the emerging seedling.

So DAP ok but N&S avoided?
I suppose lower rates reduce the risk and as fert is in row it’s more effective!
What about Urea? I’d read it causes pH rise as it dissolves and various advocates of including prilled lime at drilling. What maximum rates would you suggest?
Sorry for going OT

 

[Punch]

Some wold farmers prefer to be drilled by end of sept to get good establishment, need insecticide and 3.5 ton is a good yield

Is the insecticide working? Local group was told around 50% resistance and they breed so fast seems pointless disrupting beneficals!

 

[Drillman]

Is the insecticide working? Local group was told around 50% resistance and they breed so fast seems pointless disrupting beneficals!

Cheap insurance

 

[Drillman]

Same here!

I think I’m right in that these massive grants to buy DD drills are only available on new drills.
This seems crazy insofar that it screws the 2nd hand market up.
And it means that the big boys will take advantage the most.

Weavings have so many orders for grant aided drills it is unbelievable!
Even they suggest that the grants are completely screwing the 2nd hand market up.

Again, they are selling loads of G&F versions, knowing full well that most will never have fertiliser put in them.
This to me suggests that the whole thing is a massive con and that the money should be used for better, more Sustainable projects

Cool I’m now classed as a big boy with my 200 arable acres as I’ve an application in for a 6m DIrect Drill.

In reality I’ve decided it’s the cheapest way to get a very good piece of long term kit on the farm to get the job done quickly so I can do other stuff as well.

 

[B'o'B]

Is that the dale version of the seed hawk? We used to have a 6m dale seedhawk. It was very worn but did a great job. Depth control was spot on which is usually the downfall of tine drills. I note the new Sprinter SL is very seedhawk-esk in its design but the Dale had the weight behind it to push those tines in. I assume you can still buy a vaderstad seedhawk? Always surprises me they’re not marketed more…

The 4.2m drill is the original Dale Zero-till with the Seedhawk tine.
The “new” drill has Dale’s own tine design.

 

[alomy75]

So DAP ok but N&S avoided?
I suppose lower rates reduce the risk and as fert is in row it’s more effective!
What about Urea? I’d read it causes pH rise as it dissolves and various advocates of including prilled lime at drilling. What maximum rates would you suggest?
Sorry for going OT

I’m not the person to ask I’m afraid; not something I’ve ever looked into

 

[Two Tone]

Can you explain why that’s a crazy thing to do. Most DD advocates I’ve read on here seem to say use fert down the spout (esp in spring)?

Yes easily:

You are creating a trench in relatively firm soil (compared to a conventional seedbed) that you are putting a concentrated band of fertiliser down against the seed.
In just the same way as if all your pre-em herbicide was washed into that trench after heavy rain, it will damage the seed’s ability to geminate.

Look what happens if you spill some fertiliser in a crop while filling the spreader: It kills it!


So, Where is there any evidence that Combine drilling fertiliser and seed down the same Direct drill coulter is at all beneficial (esp in spring)?

 

[Renaultman]

Yes easily:

You are creating a trench in relatively firm soil (compared to a conventional seedbed) that you are putting a concentrated bad of fertiliser down against the seed.
In just the same way as if all you pre-em herbicide was washed into that trench after heavy rain, it was damage the seeds ability to geminate.

Look what happens if you spill some fertiliser in a crop while filling the spreader: It kills it!


So, Where is there any evidence that Combine drilling fertiliser and seed down the same drill coulter is at all beneficial (esp in spring)?

I also want to aim for whole soil health and fertility, although fert down the spout, is very popular.

 

[ajd132]

Yes easily:

You are creating a trench in relatively firm soil (compared to a conventional seedbed) that you are putting a concentrated bad of fertiliser down against the seed.
In just the same way as if all you pre-em herbicide was washed into that trench after heavy rain, it was damage the seeds ability to geminate.

Look what happens if you spill some fertiliser in a crop while filling the spreader: It kills it!


So, Where is there any evidence that Combine drilling fertiliser and seed down the same drill coulter is at all beneficial (esp in spring)?

If it’s a sensible rate (I use 100kg of 20:10:10) the theory is that you get quicker uptake for crops in the spring that need nutrition fast. The wide row spacing we use I think adds to this need. I have left bits without before and have seen a difference and picked up on yield meter. When we had a liquid fertiliser drill I once did a trial on barley where I put 80kg of n down the spout and yielded the same as the rest of the field which had 20 down the spout and 100 broadcast. But that was probably more a case of over fertilising and the season rather than putting it down the spout.