Who's bottled it ?

[Two Tone]

If it’s a sensible rate (I use 100kg of 20:10:10) the theory is that you get quicker uptake for crops in the spring that need nutrition fast. The wide row spacing we use I think adds to this need. I have left bits without before and have seen a difference and picked up on yield meter. When we had a liquid fertiliser drill I once did a trial on barley where I put 80kg of n down the spout and yielded the same as the rest of the field which had 20 down the spout and 100 broadcast. But that was probably more a case of over fertilising and the season rather than putting it down the spout.

A lot is going to depend on what make and type of drill you are using and the soil type: light/heavy.
Especially if it is a tine or disc type. I know you use an Amazon Condor which is a sort of tine type.

A disc type creates a ‘slit’ into which the seed (and fertiliser) is blown into the crease at the bottom of it.
The chances of fertiliser coming into direct contact with the seed is very much greater on this type.

I use a Weaving GD that creates a 22 degree angled slit and has a vent at the top of the coulter above the discs, that loses 50% of the air volume and pressure to ensure that the seed (and fertiliser) end up at that crease.

Logic suggested to me that this is a dangerous thing to do!
In just the same way that having applied a pre-em soon after drilling, to be followed by heavy and/or large volumes of rain, washes the vast majority of the pre-em into he trench and it is curtains for any sensible sort of plant count/metre. Especially if the soil and drilling was a bit sticky and smeared the sides of the slit/trench. Which is a greater risk with any type of disc Direct drill.
Which in itself is why I now firmly believe that we need both a tine and disc Direct drill, depending on the soil type and how et the drilling season is. IIRC @SilliamWhale suggests this and has both types. And is why @Warnesworth and Steve Townsend strongly suggest that those new to DD start off with a tine drill until their land is capable of successfully using a disc type DD.

Either way tine or disc and depending on what sort of soil type you have got, I believe we each have to decide what the risk is of placing fertiliser down the same slit/trench to the germinating crop.
With potatoes for instance, grown on obviously ‘wide’ rows, they place seedbed fertilisers a distance to the side of the seed potatoes, for exactly this reason.


The recent grant system has encouraged a lot of manufactures to built even more expensive drills with what they claim is the extra fertiliser system thrown in virtually for free.
Where that system needs not only an extra feed roller, but an addiction distribution mushroom and delivery pipe-work, I believe this to be an abuse of where our former BPS money is ending up!

 

[ajd132]

A lot is going to depend on what make and type of drill you are using and the soil type: light/heavy.
Especially if it is a tine or disc type. I know you use an Amazon Condor which is a sort of tine type.

A disc type creates a ‘slit’ into which the seed (and fertiliser) is blown into the crease at the bottom of it.
The chances of fertiliser coming into direct contact with the seed is very much greater on this type.

I use a Weaving GD that creates a 22 degree angled slit and has a vent at the top of the coulter above the discs, that loses 50% of the air volume and pressure to ensure that the seed (and fertiliser) end up at that crease.

Logic suggested to me that this is a dangerous thing to do!
In just the same way that having applied a pre-em soon after drilling, to be followed by heavy and/or large volumes of rain, washes the vast majority of the pre-em into he trench and it is curtains for any sensible sort of plant count/metre. Especially if the soil and drilling was a bit sticky and smeared the sides of the slit/trench. Which is a greater risk with any type of disc Direct drill.
Which in itself is why I now firmly believe that we need both a tine and disc Direct drill, depending on the soil type and how et the drilling season is. IIRC @SilliamWhale suggests this and has both types. And is why @Warnesworth and Steve Townsend strongly suggest that those new to DD start off with a tine drill until their land is capable of successfully using a disc type DD.

Either way tine or disc and depending on what sort of soil type you have got, I believe we each have to decide what the risk is of placing fertiliser down the same slit/trench to the germinating crop.
With potatoes for instance, grown on obviously ‘wide’ rows, they place seedbed fertilisers a distance to the side of the seed potatoes, for exactly this reason.


The recent grant system has encouraged a lot of manufactures to built even more expensive drills with what they claim is the extra fertiliser system thrown in virtually for free.
Where that system needs not only an extra feed roller, but an addiction distribution mushroom and delivery pipe-work, I believe this to be an abuse of where our former BPS money is ending up!

disc aswell here, I really think you are over dramatising this scenario by comparing it to pre ems.
I took a farm on that used a weaving GD and put fertiliser down the spout on the advice of Steve Townsend who you mentioned (although half of the seed and Fert often ended up on the top with that drill!).
over the last ten years we have probably drilled over 12000 hectares with sensible rates of various types of liquid and solid fertiliser from urea in the spring to p and k compounds in the autumn, in pretty much every establishment scenario including ploughing, its not an issue.

 

[Two Tone]

disc aswell here, I really think you are over dramatising this scenario by comparing it to pre ems.
I took a farm on that used a weaving GD and put fertiliser down the spout on the advice of Steve Townsend who you mentioned (although half of the seed and Fert often ended up on the top with that drill!).
over the last ten years we have probably drilled over 12000 hectares with sensible rates of various types of liquid and solid fertiliser from urea in the spring to p and k compounds in the autumn, in pretty much every establishment scenario including ploughing, its not an issue.

Glad to hear that you haven’t experienced a problem.
As mentioned, I‘d be less worried about G&F on a tine drill.
Which type of Disc DD do you have and does it apply Ferts as well?

Stunned though, that Steve Townsend would recommend any Disc drill, let alone a Weaving GD and even more so that it be G&F!
Are you sure about this?
I have argued with him countless times about the virtues of a GD and he would not have it!

Also, as mentioned, we did trials on our farm in Suffolk with Pertwee Landforce in the 80’s that showed not putting any ferts down the drill coulter, but putting it on separately gave a better yield (then?!?).
However, unsurprisingly with ploughing or any form of more aggressive soil disturbance establishment the risk of fertiliser being added to the seed, down the drill coulter will be much lower.

I think we each have to make our own choices and decisions about it and learn from experience.
And boy have I learned a few things this last 12 months!
Much of which has been thanks to @Warnesworth and the use of his Horsch CO3 using the Metcalfe tines that he and Steve have always liked the idea of to get started with DD.

 

[ajd132]

Glad to hear that you haven’t experienced a problem.
As mentioned, I‘d be less worried about G&F on a tine drill.
Which type of Disc DD do you have and does it apply Ferts as well?

Stunned though, that Steve Townsend would recommend any Disc drill, let alone a Weaving GD and even more so that it be G&F!
Are you sure about this?
I have argued with him countless times about the virtues of a GD and he would not have it!

Also, as mentioned, we did trials on our farm in Suffolk with Pertwee Landforce in the 80’s that showed not putting any ferts down the drill coulter, but putting it on separately gave a better yield (then?!?).

I think we each have to make our own choices and decisions about it and learn from experience.
And boy have I learned a few things this last 12 months!
Much of which has been thanks to @Warnsworth and the use of his Horsch CO3 using the Metcalfe tines that he and Steve have always liked the idea of to get started with DD.

An avatar and yes done loads of fert through it.
I don’t know if he recommended the drill but it was on the farm he was advising.

 

[Two Tone]

An avatar and yes done loads of fert through it.
I don’t know if he recommended the drill but it was on the farm he was advising.

Same here then as regards Steve and me using a GD.

I cannot believe for one minute that he recommended it.
But I chose it for Blackgrass reasons.
Which I still believe was probably right, but only providing that condition during and post drilling are good.

I really do think it pretty essential to have both types here.
Weavings now suggest starting of DD with their Sabre tine for several years before using the GD.
I see their logic behind this but know that that suggestion may have partly come from Steve’s colleague!

Nonetheless, one of Weaving’s greatest assets is that they listen very hard to their farmers.

 

[DrWazzock]

As somebody who struggles with the occasional straw blockage in a Bomford Superflow with legs in 24” spacings it amazes me how these tine drill’s supposedly cope with trash. Either the chopper must turn the straw to dust or it’s baled and carted?!

 

[DaveGrohl]

That’s fine Adam.

But I don’t want other TFF members blaming me when their inevitable disasters strike.
So I ain’t going to be lobbying in any direction other that telling others my ‘as it is’ situation and advising some caution.

I’m reading this thread and your comments with fascination. Educational. Keep them coming.

 

[Drillman]

As somebody who struggles with the occasional straw blockage in a Bomford Superflow with legs in 24” spacings it amazes me how these tine drill’s supposedly cope with trash. Either the chopper must turn the straw to dust or it’s baled and carted?!

Straw choppers are the work of the devil, producing loads more dust slowing combine output and creating a haven for slugs, Far better to bale the stuff up and lend it to some livestock who will turn it into fertiliser.

Edit- I’m no expert but would guess the diesel saved by not chopping and the extra N not required to break the straw down probably goes a long way towards an extra cultivation pass.

 

[DaveGrohl]

View attachment 1178817

Something wrong with that graph. George Monbiot isn’t on it.

 

[Adeptandy]

He the cause of the trough of disillusionment

 

[DaveGrohl]

Is the proposed dd payment going to be rotational ,annual or fixed in place i.e field for three years or just till any current plan ends and what happens re payments should you(or can you) add dd grass in say year1 or2 of your agreement. does dd grass count if in an arable rotation ?
Looking round it seems that late sown (grass weed) dd crops are struggling even if theve survived but anything sown any way in sept looks to be reasonable .

This post shows exactly what an absolute cats cradle of bollox all of this has become. Absolutely no offence to you btw @4course . Just referring to the questions you’re asking.

Sowing decisions that should be made on the day are being hamstrung by bureaucratic promises that simply don’t understand conditions on the ground that can fundamentally change in a few days. All of it relying on weather that can turn out to be unprecedented rain for 9 months thereafter. Soooo many rules around what you can do and when. It’s about as far away from "sustainable" as can be. DD should be nowhere near being subsidised, whether through shiny metal bungs/subsidies or direct payments. It’s descrimination apart from anything else. The map earlier in the thread shows this plainly.

Bureaucracy. What a way to run a world.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Actually, I use less N.
It doesn’t leach so much. (The land always travels much better too!)
The straw will never be as tall or thick, so it doesn’t need as much N as the conventional stuff.
RB209 is at least 20% to much in this land conventionally and 30% if we DD it.

so less straw? thats a major problem noones mentioned until now????

 

[Bossfarmer]

given the fact you can get a contractor in to plough for £25/acre and you need less chemicals which offsets this and more reliable crops, i find the dd thing baffling,

especially when they say youll get less yield the first few years throw in a few crop failures and the cost of the drill and its no surprise to me so many people go back to the plough, weather is only going to keep getting more extreme

 

[yellow belly]

For those new to notil strip till and dd
the forum section on notill/dd Has had the above discussion since before tff was started
15 years of experience successes and failures all for free

 

[Two Tone]

so less straw? thats a major problem noones mentioned until now????

That’s may experience and you might want to rethink how thickly you can spread you muck too.

 

[Two Tone]

given the fact you can get a contractor in to plough for £25/acre and you need less chemicals which offsets this and more reliable crops, i find the dd thing baffling,

especially when they say youll get less yield the first few years throw in a few crop failures and the cost of the drill and its no surprise to me so many people go back to the plough, weather is only going to keep getting more extreme

I generally didn’t get less yield in the first few years. In fact, slightly more!
But you might hit a wall about years 3-4 that once you are through, it you should be back to normal.

But it is quite a huge learning process.

 

[Bossfarmer]

That’s may experience and you might want to rethink how thickly you can spread you muck too.

if your limiting the muck your limiting the yield, therefore dd is lower yielding than conventional

 

[Two Tone]

if your limiting the muck your limiting the yield, therefore dd is lower yielding than conventional

Many wouldn’t necessarily 100% agree with that statement.

How thick do you spread it and what is your expected yield?

there are plenty of farmers that grow very high yielding crops without muck.
There are even quite a few DD’ers that have learned how to do so because their soils have improved so much that they do not need muck to get those high yields.

Earthworms become your cultivators and they increase and work harder if you stop aggressive cultivations.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Many wouldn’t necessarily 100% agree with that statement.

How thick do you spread it and what is your expected yield?

there are plenty of farmers that grow very high yielding crops without muck.
There are even quite a few DD’ers that have learned how to do so because their soils have improved so much that they do not need muck to get those high yields.

Earthworms become your cultivators and they increase and work harder if you stop aggressive cultivations.

not so much with wheat but SB def sees a big boost with muck, looking for 3-3.5t/acre, dont achieve this and pass for high N malting without large volumes, we plough in 15-20t/acre

 

[Huno]

Payments for DD are discriminatory against those of us with very heavy land. That very heavy land often grows the highest yields of wheat here if caught right, ploughed early, dry etc. So SFI is actually favouring wheat growing on the lighter less suitable land, for example on the sand here which is likely to yield 1.5 t per acre less in a normal year but is easy to direct drill continuously. It’s a joke really. SUSTAINABLE farming incentive, paying a sub to methodologies that aren’t economically sustainable, while leaving truly sustainable systems with no support at all. Anyway I’ll carry on doing “what’s right” regardless of SFI.

It is a JOKE yes!! SFI that is.. a horrible joke we are going to get used to as farmers or do something else...