Exfarmer
Member
- Location
- Bury St Edmunds
Ps whatever you do don't grow borage.
It is the worst weed known to man and would be totally unmanageable in an organic system.
New tenancy
- Thread starter New Puritan
- Start date
It is the worst weed known to man and would be totally unmanageable in an organic system.
New Puritan
Member
- Location
- East Sussex
Thanks everyone, again.
I now know a bit more about the land, and the history...
The farmed area is smaller than I first thought, it's about 45 acres, so totally not viable as an income on its own. The rest is woodland. His rotation is 1 year grass/clover, 2 years of cereals and 1 year of field beans. The rotation has swapped about a bit from what I can tell, but generally speaking there's only about 30 acres in cropping at any given point, though obviously there's still some work to do on the fallow field, albeit less time critical.
He wants to retire, and has left the land to an environmental trust in his will, but wants it to continue to be farmed to produce food. This is why he has invited me to be his tenant, as he knows I share his environmental beliefs. This is good from my perspective, as I am keen to invest a lot in the soil but wouldn't want to run too much of a risk of being booted off when someone else inherits the land further down the line. Never say never, but I assume the environmental charity will not mind owning a small organic farm with a sitting tenant.
So, I keep the day job but run this venture alongside. I've looked at the books, such as they are, and it seems to be relatively profitable in its own small way. It's too small to be a real earner, but it does give a return of sorts, and I can't say fairer than that. It just depends on how much time it takes up.
The current farmer has some very old machinery which will be included in the lease. He has the complete rig, but something I want to look at is using outside help where it makes sense to do so. I would prefer to do as much as possible myself though, as I want to learn as much as practically possible - even if what I learn is to pay someone else to do it the next time.
I wasn't born into farming, and this is a relatively out of the blue opportunity for me to have a go in a fairly low risk way, and it's something I always wanted but thought would never happen. If I get on alright, hopefully the experience would help me to look for larger opportunities later on, but who knows?
I should be able to get in just under the wire to get the new entrants under 41 subsidy, which will help a bit in my first year. I need to buy a better tractor that can be used as an all-rounder - he has 4 old tractors and a JCB, but they are all ancient and/or knackered. Recommendations on what I could get for <£10k that would be good for everything on a fairly level clay soil arable holding of 45 acres would be gratefully received.
So, thanks again for everyone's input. I appreciate this is a borderline small-holding venture, and piffling compared to what many of you lot are doing, but I'm only just starting out
Cheers.
Good point. I guess poppies would be a bad idea too? What about lupins? Or linseed?
I now know a bit more about the land, and the history...
The farmed area is smaller than I first thought, it's about 45 acres, so totally not viable as an income on its own. The rest is woodland. His rotation is 1 year grass/clover, 2 years of cereals and 1 year of field beans. The rotation has swapped about a bit from what I can tell, but generally speaking there's only about 30 acres in cropping at any given point, though obviously there's still some work to do on the fallow field, albeit less time critical.
He wants to retire, and has left the land to an environmental trust in his will, but wants it to continue to be farmed to produce food. This is why he has invited me to be his tenant, as he knows I share his environmental beliefs. This is good from my perspective, as I am keen to invest a lot in the soil but wouldn't want to run too much of a risk of being booted off when someone else inherits the land further down the line. Never say never, but I assume the environmental charity will not mind owning a small organic farm with a sitting tenant.
So, I keep the day job but run this venture alongside. I've looked at the books, such as they are, and it seems to be relatively profitable in its own small way. It's too small to be a real earner, but it does give a return of sorts, and I can't say fairer than that. It just depends on how much time it takes up.
The current farmer has some very old machinery which will be included in the lease. He has the complete rig, but something I want to look at is using outside help where it makes sense to do so. I would prefer to do as much as possible myself though, as I want to learn as much as practically possible - even if what I learn is to pay someone else to do it the next time.
I wasn't born into farming, and this is a relatively out of the blue opportunity for me to have a go in a fairly low risk way, and it's something I always wanted but thought would never happen. If I get on alright, hopefully the experience would help me to look for larger opportunities later on, but who knows?
I should be able to get in just under the wire to get the new entrants under 41 subsidy, which will help a bit in my first year. I need to buy a better tractor that can be used as an all-rounder - he has 4 old tractors and a JCB, but they are all ancient and/or knackered. Recommendations on what I could get for <£10k that would be good for everything on a fairly level clay soil arable holding of 45 acres would be gratefully received.
So, thanks again for everyone's input. I appreciate this is a borderline small-holding venture, and piffling compared to what many of you lot are doing, but I'm only just starting out
Cheers.
Exfarmer
Member
- Location
- Bury St Edmunds
I would guess it is in the Weald. If so it is very heavy land. Poppies like very light soils. I would check Ph and PK levels.
I would be inclined to go for grass and or environmental ayments , however much it would pain you, just as it would me.
I would be inclined to go for grass and or environmental ayments , however much it would pain you, just as it would me.
New Puritan
Member
- Location
- East Sussex
To answer another question further back, yes there is grain storage with driers on site; and there is a cleaner too though it is a bit old / heath-robinson.
There is an old Claas combine. Apparently it is a fine machine, but can anyone tell me if it would make sense to hire in a contractor for harvesting instead of fiddling with that old thing? How much more efficient are modern harvesters - do old ones lose half the crop out the back?
There is an old Claas combine. Apparently it is a fine machine, but can anyone tell me if it would make sense to hire in a contractor for harvesting instead of fiddling with that old thing? How much more efficient are modern harvesters - do old ones lose half the crop out the back?
Attachments
gone up the hill
Member
- Location
- Devon
If that combine is set right and the major parts aren't worn out then it can/ will do just as good a job on those acres than a modern combine with possible less losses than a contractor will have!
glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
contractors hate cutting organic crops, and they wont turn up to cut 10 acres of this and twenty acres of that.
wasted years
Member
- Location
- Cumbrian born and bread
Sounds like an opportunity not to be missed, not many people get to be invited to be a tenant, as you say low risk , you can always jump out if needs be.
You mention the old tackle,I will bet you a pound that if you get rid of it given time you will end up back to where you started. Don't forget this old guy will have bought the gear for a reason, the nreason being that it suits the ground, crops and of course what is affordable. A contractor is the logical choice but you cannot beat the feeling of doing it yourself, so what if a tractor lies down , just go and get one of the other old birds.The truth is that on that size you cannot afford to buy much at all that anyone with a hand on heart can say won't let you down. Go through the pain barrier while you learn, every acre that combine does is £35 to the good and with it being a Claas there are shed loads about in breakers. Go for it!
You mention the old tackle,I will bet you a pound that if you get rid of it given time you will end up back to where you started. Don't forget this old guy will have bought the gear for a reason, the nreason being that it suits the ground, crops and of course what is affordable. A contractor is the logical choice but you cannot beat the feeling of doing it yourself, so what if a tractor lies down , just go and get one of the other old birds.The truth is that on that size you cannot afford to buy much at all that anyone with a hand on heart can say won't let you down. Go through the pain barrier while you learn, every acre that combine does is £35 to the good and with it being a Claas there are shed loads about in breakers. Go for it!
Strawberry roan
Member
- Location
- East Lancashire
Are there any buildings suitable for livestock?could you not grass the lot and have an organic herd/ flock?
New Puritan
Member
- Location
- East Sussex
Neither me nor the landlord want to graze stock. It's an arable farm, and that's how it's going to stay. I don't / can't live on-site for a start.
Would this be potentially viable as continuous organic arable unit if factoring in over winter cover crops and annual compost additions? I think PAS100 composts are ok on OFG certified units?
This is really left field but what about trying to maintain an permanent under-storey of say white clover and direct drilling though it - sure this has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum in the past... @Clive may know?
This is really left field but what about trying to maintain an permanent under-storey of say white clover and direct drilling though it - sure this has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum in the past... @Clive may know?
New Puritan
Member
- Location
- East Sussex
Thanks Jason.
I need to do some research on direct drilling etc. My gut reaction (which may be incorrect...) is that direct drilling isn't such a good idea on either clay soils or with organic systems, and I have both. Does anyone have a view on that? Also, the straw is not baled but chopped and left in situ. When people direct drill do they do that through chopped straw, or is the straw always taken off?
Yep PAS100 compost and PAS110 digestate from AD are acceptable under organic rules. Direct application of some other plant wastes is okay without PAS too, they are just "notifiable" to the certification body. I've been offered spent hops from a brewery and these can be applied within the rules.
The farmer has harvested the crop in 2015, and as I won't be starting until next year the land is all getting a year off. Most of it has some form of legume on it as clover has grown back through the stubble, and so it has sort of ended up with what you describe. Does anyone do this on purpose then - getting an understory of clover going alongside the wheat? I would assume the clover would still compete with the wheat for moisture and nutrients, so how much benefit is the extra N from it vs. the other losses?
In what you describe would that involve always spring sowing then, to allow for the cover crop to establish over winter?
This is all really interesting, the farm is only small and will not be my main source of income so I don't mind experimenting a bit (within reason).
Thanks again,
I need to do some research on direct drilling etc. My gut reaction (which may be incorrect...) is that direct drilling isn't such a good idea on either clay soils or with organic systems, and I have both. Does anyone have a view on that? Also, the straw is not baled but chopped and left in situ. When people direct drill do they do that through chopped straw, or is the straw always taken off?
Yep PAS100 compost and PAS110 digestate from AD are acceptable under organic rules. Direct application of some other plant wastes is okay without PAS too, they are just "notifiable" to the certification body. I've been offered spent hops from a brewery and these can be applied within the rules.
The farmer has harvested the crop in 2015, and as I won't be starting until next year the land is all getting a year off. Most of it has some form of legume on it as clover has grown back through the stubble, and so it has sort of ended up with what you describe. Does anyone do this on purpose then - getting an understory of clover going alongside the wheat? I would assume the clover would still compete with the wheat for moisture and nutrients, so how much benefit is the extra N from it vs. the other losses?
In what you describe would that involve always spring sowing then, to allow for the cover crop to establish over winter?
This is all really interesting, the farm is only small and will not be my main source of income so I don't mind experimenting a bit (within reason).
Thanks again,
From what I can gather through discussions on here and elsewhere this notion of organic DD is the holy grail as such - as with anything cutting edge its potentially rife with problems and setbacks, just threw it in as a theoretical option really.
@Simon C certainly has success DD'ing into genuine heavy clay from what I read - he isn't organic but certainly in the progressive / conservation agriculture mould in my opinion (hope that's an appropriate Simon!?).
As an initial caveat we are only just getting into DD ourselves and in a conventional sense so others will have more to offer but...
Lots of discussion on here re the perils of DD into chopped cereal straw - see the 'two Simon's theory', in a nutshell straw breaking down causes localised acidity and N-Lock up... both make for a hostile environment for a new seed. If this is combined with hair-pinning (straw pressed into the DD slot) then you really do have issues. We have seen this type of poor germination following straw incorporated too shallow in min-till - I have no doubt it exists.
The clover will be very competitive with a spring cereal IMHO, some interesting research pieces come up on a google search, some showing awful yields even by organic standards, others better (~5t/ha cereals).
Having given it some thought perhaps an overwintered vetch crop flailed off in early spring then drilled into would be more favourable from the outset, that said I recall reading that vetch residue has some allelopathic effects...
In terms of the wider opportunity though from what you have described I think you'll always kick yourself if you don't give it a go, you haven't much to loose aside from a years rent, some of your spare time, some seed costs and perhaps some machinery repairs from what I can see?
@Simon C certainly has success DD'ing into genuine heavy clay from what I read - he isn't organic but certainly in the progressive / conservation agriculture mould in my opinion (hope that's an appropriate Simon!?).
As an initial caveat we are only just getting into DD ourselves and in a conventional sense so others will have more to offer but...
Lots of discussion on here re the perils of DD into chopped cereal straw - see the 'two Simon's theory', in a nutshell straw breaking down causes localised acidity and N-Lock up... both make for a hostile environment for a new seed. If this is combined with hair-pinning (straw pressed into the DD slot) then you really do have issues. We have seen this type of poor germination following straw incorporated too shallow in min-till - I have no doubt it exists.
The clover will be very competitive with a spring cereal IMHO, some interesting research pieces come up on a google search, some showing awful yields even by organic standards, others better (~5t/ha cereals).
Having given it some thought perhaps an overwintered vetch crop flailed off in early spring then drilled into would be more favourable from the outset, that said I recall reading that vetch residue has some allelopathic effects...
In terms of the wider opportunity though from what you have described I think you'll always kick yourself if you don't give it a go, you haven't much to loose aside from a years rent, some of your spare time, some seed costs and perhaps some machinery repairs from what I can see?
New Puritan
Member
- Location
- East Sussex
Thanks for that Jason - there are clearly a lot of knowledgeable people on here, and all help is very much appreciated.
I will no doubt have further questions in due course, especially around weed control, rotation, choice of crops, subsoiling and anything else I can think of...
Ta!
I will no doubt have further questions in due course, especially around weed control, rotation, choice of crops, subsoiling and anything else I can think of...
Ta!
yellow belly
Member
- Location
- south west lincolnshire
If can get an fbt of more than 10 years with the current owner or longer to give you security with a rent formula related to the bps a and crop prices so you do not have to negotiate with the trusts agent when it inherits the land if possible with an option to purchase the land
If the rent is less than bps plus organic premium then your risk is reduced and manageable
Get all agreement using a good ag lawyer
If the rent is less than bps plus organic premium then your risk is reduced and manageable
Get all agreement using a good ag lawyer
Thought of this thread when talking to an organic farmer the other day - have you taken the plunge @New Puritan ?
New Puritan
Member
- Location
- East Sussex
Not quite, though it's all going ahead... I mean, yes I am definitely doing it, but the lease doesn't start until April 1st. Not that we've even agreed the lease terms yet of course, but it's very amicable and I can't really see any problems (yet). There's some dull but important stuff like sorting out electricity meters and moving old kit about and whatnot to deal with at the moment. I'm really excited though, and looking forward to a new challenge.*
Having gone through the past rotation with the current farmer / landowner, I know what I'm going to grow this year - mainly wheat. In years to come I'd be interested in trying linseed and / or sunflowers - does anyone have an opinion on these as organic crops? Other than get a contract first? I've also got someone interested in my growing a trial area of puy lentils - has anyone else grown these (at all, yet alone organically?).
I feel very lucky to have been given this opportunity - the farmer is an excellent bloke and is being really helpful; plus as I have 2 other jobs I'm not going to be entirely dependent on this to make my living (luckily...) so can afford to take a bit of a gamble here and there.
Thanks for taking an interest, all you who have.
*Yeah yeah, I know there's loads of jaded people on here who will roll their eyes at that bit.
Great news - good for you!
Organic linseed, hmm.... no desiccation, extremely un-competitive with weeds, insect pest pressure, assuming you could get it growing and then cut what would it yield - a tonne to the hectare at most? Definitely seems at the risky end of the spectrum to my mind but as you say this isn't paying the mortgage is it!
No idea on sunflowers or lentils, just had some for with the tea as it happens (the lentils that is)
Organic linseed, hmm.... no desiccation, extremely un-competitive with weeds, insect pest pressure, assuming you could get it growing and then cut what would it yield - a tonne to the hectare at most? Definitely seems at the risky end of the spectrum to my mind but as you say this isn't paying the mortgage is it!
No idea on sunflowers or lentils, just had some for with the tea as it happens (the lentils that is)
New Puritan
Member
- Location
- East Sussex
Thanks @Jason . So I'm showing my ignorance here - linseed is hard to grow is it? They don't mention that in the books! As a frequenter of wholefood shops I just had it in my head that organic linseed would have a market. Did anyone grow it pre-1945? I know very little of its history as a crop in the UK - but it's where linen and lino get their names from, so I assumed it has been around for ages? I know flax is slightly different, but also assume it has similar growth issues?
Up and down years with it conventionally here, always comes but could be very late even with desiccation and needs a good start in life so fertility, moisture and soil warmth - may be difficult to achieve this in an organic situation to my mind, especially moisture with continual soil disturbance needed for the stale seedbed...
Just found you an example contract, wasn't far off on the yield estimate it seems!
http://www.premiumcrops.co.uk/files/Linseed_grower_terms_organic_16.pdf
Just found you an example contract, wasn't far off on the yield estimate it seems!
http://www.premiumcrops.co.uk/files/Linseed_grower_terms_organic_16.pdf