"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

well, just passed a TB test, and can now say, we won't be milking much longer.

not happy about it, but looking at what we would need to spend, to 'modernise', not only to meet current regs on slurry etc, but to safe proof the set up, for the next 20 yrs, neither son or l, want to borrow that sort of money, well in excess of 1/2 million, with the current farming income, and uncertainty of future pricing. Plus, l have siblings to sort out, preferably with a shotgun, but that's not allowed.

and we will be losing some land, so the decision has been made, that was sons decision, l left that to him, he's pondered for long enough, but has made up his mind, correctly so. No point in just working 12 hrs a day, knowing family, will happily expect us to borrow, so they can swan off, having done SFA, to earn the money.

farm will change, SFI will provide useful income, more maize, already presold, per ton, and any surplus grass, already spoken for. The rest will be more regen. But we have to balance the books, so to speak. Beef side has been expanding, and will continue to do so, mainly AAx, or hfrdx.
Even heard the dreaded S word mentioned, but lambs at £150 upwards, would imagine a profit there, at long last, without the numbers game.

times change, and we have to adapt to those changes, as best we can.

 

[RushesToo]

well, just passed a TB test, and can now say, we won't be milking much longer.

not happy about it, but looking at what we would need to spend, to 'modernise', not only to meet current regs on slurry etc, but to safe proof the set up, for the next 20 yrs, neither son or l, want to borrow that sort of money, well in excess of 1/2 million, with the current farming income, and uncertainty of future pricing. Plus, l have siblings to sort out, preferably with a shotgun, but that's not allowed.

and we will be losing some land, so the decision has been made, that was sons decision, l left that to him, he's pondered for long enough, but has made up his mind, correctly so. No point in just working 12 hrs a day, knowing family, will happily expect us to borrow, so they can swan off, having done SFA, to earn the money.

farm will change, SFI will provide useful income, more maize, already presold, per ton, and any surplus grass, already spoken for. The rest will be more regen. But we have to balance the books, so to speak. Beef side has been expanding, and will continue to do so, mainly AAx, or hfrdx.
Even heard the dreaded S word mentioned, but lambs at £150 upwards, would imagine a profit there, at long last, without the numbers game.

times change, and we have to adapt to those changes, as best we can.

I'm glad your son took time getting to an outcome, There are times when you have to take a decision, and it may not be the best of the options - but doing nothing was no longer sensible.
That was very complex and it is good he took his time.

Doing nothing was not viable. Support him, because change is never ever popular nor easy. Don't make enemies and help him explain why this was the least worst option, alternatives to his decision are available but they are not something a rational person would do.

Brave and sensible chap,

 

[som farmer]

I'm glad your son took time getting to an outcome, There are times when you have to take a decision, and it may not be the best of the options - but doing nothing was no longer sensible.
That was very complex and it is good he took his time.

Doing nothing was not viable. Support him, because change is never ever popular nor easy. Don't make enemies and help him explain why this was the least worst option, alternatives to his decision are available but they are not something a rational person would do.

Brave and sensible chap,

l would have preferred him to make his mind up, a year ago !

but he's worked it out, 75 go next month, leaving 50 of the 'also runs', which he will milk on, going 1x day in a while. Some of these we will barren and fatten, some will be sold fresh, as they calve, and some will be sucklers, some very stocky small fr types, couple of jerx as well. So its a slower wind down.

one big thing l was worried about, he's missed 4 milkings, in the last 8 yrs, and we were not entirely sure, he was going to let them go. I couldn't milk them now.

new chapter, new times, it was his decision to return to milking in 2007, and his to stop now, and that's how it should be, its his future, not mine.

 

[RushesToo]

l would have preferred him to make his mind up, a year ago !

but he's worked it out, 75 go next month, leaving 50 of the 'also runs', which he will milk on, going 1x day in a while. Some of these we will barren and fatten, some will be sold fresh, as they calve, and some will be sucklers, some very stocky small fr types, couple of jerx as well. So its a slower wind down.

one big thing l was worried about, he's missed 4 milkings, in the last 8 yrs, and we were not entirely sure, he was going to let them go. I couldn't milk them now.

new chapter, new times, it was his decision to return to milking in 2007, and his to stop now, and that's how it should be, its his future, not mine.

Stand back and I would recommend find him someone to discuss his decisions with apart from you. I know that probably hurts and maybe should have DM'ed, but the he lives in his time, age and responsibilities, and you have a different view. I think this may apply to a lot of farmers and their offspring.

No one goes through their lives without making mistakes - getting to know how to make fewer errors or not making thenm is the most important part of learning - it should to be a broad audience that evaluates his proposals.

 

[som farmer]

Stand back and I would recommend find him someone to discuss his decisions with apart from you. I know that probably hurts and maybe should have DM'ed, but the he lives in his time, age and responsibilities, and you have a different view. I think this may apply to a lot of farmers and their offspring.

No one goes through their lives without making mistakes - getting to know how to make fewer errors or not making thenm is the most important part of learning - it should to be a broad audience that evaluates his proposals.

good advice, and he has taken a lot of that. The decision has been a year+ in coming. Friend in the auctioneers has been especially helpful, with timing etc.

in reality, we cannot continue milking, without spending a huge amount of money, the 'bodging' the set-up, to keep going, has run its course. And neither him, nor me, want to get into that debt, although l would have, if he had wanted to. So the choice, in black and white, was easy, the mental decision was the hard one.

 

[Fenwick]

good advice, and he has taken a lot of that. The decision has been a year+ in coming. Friend in the auctioneers has been especially helpful, with timing etc.

in reality, we cannot continue milking, without spending a huge amount of money, the 'bodging' the set-up, to keep going, has run its course. And neither him, nor me, want to get into that debt, although l would have, if he had wanted to. So the choice, in black and white, was easy, the mental decision was the hard one.

Not really linked to your case. But this is one reason why these simple outwintering operations are doing so well over here.

You need to cover your manure and recuperate any liquids
- ok, haven't got any manure.

You need to calculate your nitrogen equivelants and where the muck is being spread
- ok havne't got any.

You need to have xM2 more space per animal in your shed.
- ok no shed.

You are only allowed to put out slurry between date x and date x.
Ok no slurry.

And so on.

I suppose at some point we will get told that the cows have to stay inside as they fart less or something. At this point I think i will not only give up farming, I will have given up on humanity

I see quite a few youngsters getting started in farming with simple low cost setups.
At least there is an alternative to putting your finger in the machine.

 

[som farmer]

Not really linked to your case. But this is one reason why these simple outwintering operations are doing so well over here.

You need to cover your manure and recuperate any liquids
- ok, haven't got any manure.

You need to calculate your nitrogen equivelants and where the muck is being spread
- ok havne't got any.

You need to have xM2 more space per animal in your shed.
- ok no shed.

You are only allowed to put out slurry between date x and date x.
Ok no slurry.

And so on.

I suppose at some point we will get told that the cows have to stay inside as they fart less or something. At this point I think i will not only give up farming, I will have given up on humanity

I see quite a few youngsters getting started in farming with simple low cost setups.
At least there is an alternative to putting your finger in the machine.

the trouble is, there isn't a cheap way to get into farming.

sheep used to be the main route, but they are no longer cheap !

there are several new tenants, 31st march, going into dairy farms, and we could have sold to two of them, likewise expanding herds, would have suited me ! But one has to be governed by the auctioneers advice, and that is, through the ring, timed to coincide with those new tenants looking for cows, with Mart-eye, you cover the whole of the UK.

back in 1999, when l sold the cows then, we averaged £350/cow, and that was a good sale, we can add a £1,000 to that price today, according to auctioneers.

how the feck can youngsters start off, with that amount of cash needed ? Presumably a large % borrowed, at 8% interest, or close to. And yet we need youngsters coming in.


when l started to 'help', we were still tying cows up in a barn, out by day, on kale, and a lot of y/s outwintered. Sat doing this, and l cannot recall where we kept the young calves !

we were so thankful when we could house the cows, then the y/s, l look at todays big grazing herds, out wintered, and think, you are welcome to it !

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Not really linked to your case. But this is one reason why these simple outwintering operations are doing so well over here.

You need to cover your manure and recuperate any liquids
- ok, haven't got any manure.

You need to calculate your nitrogen equivelants and where the muck is being spread
- ok havne't got any.

You need to have xM2 more space per animal in your shed.
- ok no shed.

You are only allowed to put out slurry between date x and date x.
Ok no slurry.

And so on.

I suppose at some point we will get told that the cows have to stay inside as they fart less or something. At this point I think i will not only give up farming, I will have given up on humanity

I see quite a few youngsters getting started in farming with simple low cost setups.
At least there is an alternative to putting your finger in the machine.

"Don't put your finger where you wouldn't put your pecker"

I'm returning us to where I began, bought some heifers and cows and plonked them on a paddock where they can have a sip or hide in the willows, when you look at the alternatives they all look like work and stress

 

[ringi]

I suppose at some point we will get told that the cows have to stay inside as they fart less or something

Nitrous Oxide (and other nitrous gases) emission are practically always lower when cattle are outside on grass, as a primary source is the mixing of urine and dung. When outside the soil life can stabilise them before a lot of N is lost.

Slurry nearly alwasy have higher emissions then FYM. It is hard to store/spread FYM so badly to get emissions that are comparable with the best managed slurry systems.

There are systems that capture some of the nitrous gases from cattle shed air and even some systems that let the urine drain into a tank while the dung is scaped into a different tank, but I don't see them with UK scale cattle sheds ever giving lower emissions then outdoor cattle on foliage getting moved often with long recovery times for the foliage.

 

[ringi]

sheep used to be the main route, but they are no longer cheap !

The only low capital source of livestock seems to be B&B of calves outdoors on grass being paid per kg of weight gain. Cell gazing with semi permanent electric frence seem to give low capital cost of equipment combined with improved output as the soil improves. But it needs land, and land that the new starter can keep farming long term to benefit from the improved soil.

Sheep overwinter on arable farms should also be an entry route, but I think it needs doing at large scale and not practical for a new starter to get access to willing arable farms.

 

[som farmer]

The only low capital source of livestock seems to be B&B of calves outdoors on grass being paid per kg of weight gain. Cell gazing with semi permanent electric frence seem to give low capital cost of equipment combined with improved output as the soil improves. But it needs land, and land that the new starter can keep farming long term to benefit from the improved soil.

Sheep overwinter on arable farms should also be an entry route, but I think it needs doing at large scale and not practical for a new starter to get access to willing arable farms.

l was lucky, had the land, rented, but nothing much else. It was sheep, and 100's of calves.

but sheep were cheap, got given 300 beulahs, if l collected them, chap had sent a lorry load to mkt, and after haulage, cheque was £4.

they were about the best paying sheep l ever had, but neighbours and myself, were bloody glad to see the back of them !! Could nearly write a book about their escapades !

calves were dirt cheap, fr bull calves paid the best, rear them hard, and they went north. But loads of beef calves were under £15. Used to have 6/700 about, all the time.

when we went back into milk, the best costings were for 25/30 cows, and an ultra simple parlour, and l would suspect, if you could find a processor to pick the milk up, that could still be the cheapest route, as long as you had a small base, fields could be miles away, haul the fodder back.

but, typical farmer fault, went a lot bigger, max 270. We all need to learn, max production, just lowers price.

but we don't, we have the lure of the hamster wheel.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

the trouble is, there isn't a cheap way to get into farming.

sheep used to be the main route, but they are no longer cheap !

there are several new tenants, 31st march, going into dairy farms, and we could have sold to two of them, likewise expanding herds, would have suited me ! But one has to be governed by the auctioneers advice, and that is, through the ring, timed to coincide with those new tenants looking for cows, with Mart-eye, you cover the whole of the UK.

back in 1999, when l sold the cows then, we averaged £350/cow, and that was a good sale, we can add a £1,000 to that price today, according to auctioneers.

how the feck can youngsters start off, with that amount of cash needed ? Presumably a large % borrowed, at 8% interest, or close to. And yet we need youngsters coming in.


when l started to 'help', we were still tying cows up in a barn, out by day, on kale, and a lot of y/s outwintered. Sat doing this, and l cannot recall where we kept the young calves !

we were so thankful when we could house the cows, then the y/s, l look at todays big grazing herds, out wintered, and think, you are welcome to it !

It's similar to the housing situation, isn't it.

We ask how young people can afford homes at the price.... but you look at the homes and they're 4x better and flasher and straighter than where their great grandparents spent their best years.

Nobody is really looking at starting at the bottom, because as low as they'll go is about ¼turn back from the best setup they've ever seen. Doesn't matter if it doesn't pay feck all because that's also what the rumours say

Say you worked on an estate for someone and they said they couldn't afford to pay you anything like you're worth, but you can buy some sheep and run them around doing jobs... in your own time

That's actually a very cheap way into livestock for a new entrant as they get paid to learn, and pay themself to be smarter next year. What interests me is why people would want to own every bit and piece when someone else "might just let them have a wee go" if they were the other way about it.

Nearly every farmer I've worked for said he'd love someone to just come and ask if they could help out and potter about but can't afford to pay them money. It's a really good way in, I always had my own cows or some bull calves or some little hobby mob tucked away.
To some it might be pretend farming but then when you clear 10's of thousands of very real money thanks to "no grazing costs" "ah there's a bit of drench in a can over there" "better give yours a bale of hay" it doesn't matter what they say

 

[som farmer]

It's similar to the housing situation, isn't it.

We ask how young people can afford homes at the price.... but you look at the homes and they're 4x better and flasher and straighter than where their great grandparents spent their best years.

Nobody is really looking at starting at the bottom, because as low as they'll go is about ¼turn back from the best setup they've ever seen. Doesn't matter if it doesn't pay feck all because that's also what the rumours say

Say you worked on an estate for someone and they said they couldn't afford to pay you anything like you're worth, but you can buy some sheep and run them around doing jobs... in your own time

That's actually a very cheap way into livestock for a new entrant as they get paid to learn, and pay themself to be smarter next year. What interests me is why people would want to own every bit and piece when someone else "might just let them have a wee go" if they were the other way about it.

Nearly every farmer I've worked for said he'd love someone to just come and ask if they could help out and potter about but can't afford to pay them money. It's a really good way in, I always had my own cows or some bull calves or some little hobby mob tucked away.
To some it might be pretend farming but then when you clear 10's of thousands of very real money thanks to "no grazing costs" "ah there's a bit of drench in a can over there" "better give yours a bale of hay" it doesn't matter what they say

but it wasn't easy, it is sheer determination that gets you going.

its the value of stock, today, that is the killer.

 

[Henarar]

It's similar to the housing situation, isn't it.

We ask how young people can afford homes at the price.... but you look at the homes and they're 4x better and flasher and straighter than where their great grandparents spent their best years.

Nobody is really looking at starting at the bottom, because as low as they'll go is about ¼turn back from the best setup they've ever seen. Doesn't matter if it doesn't pay feck all because that's also what the rumours say

Say you worked on an estate for someone and they said they couldn't afford to pay you anything like you're worth, but you can buy some sheep and run them around doing jobs... in your own time

That's actually a very cheap way into livestock for a new entrant as they get paid to learn, and pay themself to be smarter next year. What interests me is why people would want to own every bit and piece when someone else "might just let them have a wee go" if they were the other way about it.

Nearly every farmer I've worked for said he'd love someone to just come and ask if they could help out and potter about but can't afford to pay them money. It's a really good way in, I always had my own cows or some bull calves or some little hobby mob tucked away.
To some it might be pretend farming but then when you clear 10's of thousands of very real money thanks to "no grazing costs" "ah there's a bit of drench in a can over there" "better give yours a bale of hay" it doesn't matter what they say

Great way to start out

 

[ringi]

but sheep were cheap

I think there are still cull/draft ewes that are cheap enough to buy, put good ram over, keep ewe lambs and sell culls as fat. But I didn't think it will cover rent and fencing costs in 1st year or two. So need other good source of income/capital.

(And the much higher risk of importing infections these days makes such a system questionable unless can get many culls/draft from same source.)

 

[Henarar]

think there are still cull/draft ewes that are cheap enough to buy, put good ram over, keep ewe lambs and sell culls as fat. But I didn't think it will cover rent and fencing costs in 1st year or two. So need other good source of income/capital.

No bits of land about that folk are just happy to have kept tidy, I know some that run their sheep job on this.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

but it wasn't easy, it is sheer determination that gets you going.

its the value of stock, today, that is the killer.

Yes it was always too expensive when we had our money tied up in land and plant and then paying insurances and rates on top.
It's a fair bit of a hit for "savers" but investors are often distinctly different.
We weren't very different as we basically had all the liquid stuff ploughed into a farm, but it meant looking for other things

Great way to start out

That's why it's funny to be "back" there, having ridden the big wave this feels so familiar - and comfortable. Great way to build equity.

We bought animals that we can see a decent margin in, this might be the year to weed out a few of our pets and just keep the friendliest ones.
(Like being able to wander up to a cow and squirt some milk into a mug, little things like that just make me happy. Key is to put a lid on the mug before rubbing all the cow's wool off).

13 years ago we had 7 carryover cows and 7 bull calves to sell.
Now we own more cattle than we ran at our little place in Owaka but all the pressure to perform is missing. I don't miss it at all

 

[som farmer]

I think there are still cull/draft ewes that are cheap enough to buy, put good ram over, keep ewe lambs and sell culls as fat. But I didn't think it will cover rent and fencing costs in 1st year or two. So need other good source of income/capital.

(And the much higher risk of importing infections these days makes such a system questionable unless can get many culls/draft from same source.)

with the good news today, that its going to cost more to import food from Europe, everything points to these higher prices staying here. But the cheapest stock are the xbred small calves out of grazing herds.

perhaps if you kept the heifer calves, to bull, not to sure what sire to use on them .............

No bits of land about that folk are just happy to have kept tidy, I know some that run their sheep job on this.

met a chap who was CHARGING people to get their paddocks grazed/kept tidy, by his sheep, thought that was really neat.

our p/t chap keeps getting offered bits of land, he's always on the look out for more, the trouble is, he doesn't have enough sheep to graze it all, reckon he's got about 30 odd acres, for 49 sheep ....................... and you can't tell him anything. He will lose 8 acres, close to us, which we will be offered , because its not grazed down. He will wrongly blame us, as he is rather peed of with us, not so much work from us now, and another job he did, through us, will go as wll.

It's similar to the housing situation, isn't it.

We ask how young people can afford homes at the price.... but you look at the homes and they're 4x better and flasher and straighter than where their great grandparents spent their best years.

Nobody is really looking at starting at the bottom, because as low as they'll go is about ¼turn back from the best setup they've ever seen. Doesn't matter if it doesn't pay feck all because that's also what the rumours say

Say you worked on an estate for someone and they said they couldn't afford to pay you anything like you're worth, but you can buy some sheep and run them around doing jobs... in your own time

That's actually a very cheap way into livestock for a new entrant as they get paid to learn, and pay themself to be smarter next year. What interests me is why people would want to own every bit and piece when someone else "might just let them have a wee go" if they were the other way about it.

Nearly every farmer I've worked for said he'd love someone to just come and ask if they could help out and potter about but can't afford to pay them money. It's a really good way in, I always had my own cows or some bull calves or some little hobby mob tucked away.
To some it might be pretend farming but then when you clear 10's of thousands of very real money thanks to "no grazing costs" "ah there's a bit of drench in a can over there" "better give yours a bale of hay" it doesn't matter what they say

l think there are a lot of 'struggling' farmers, who would be better off, shrinking back, and getting a p/t or full time job, and turning the farm into more part time.

and p/t is the easiest way to amass stock/collateral, ready for chance to 'proper' farm.

our calf lady, came to help a bit, as we had been very helpful to them, when they were in the shite. Did a marvellous job, trained to my standards, she's now paid well, and figures strongly in our future plans, there will be another 40 odd AAx calves on the 16th, that's over the 100 off 1 farm, all same sire.

and some who have come to 'help' have been fecking useless.

but we ALL need a bit of help to get our farming careers going, several helped us, and 2 firms were really helpful, funnily enough, we are still dealing with them 30 yrs later !

 

[Fenwick]

Nitrous Oxide (and other nitrous gases) emission are practically always lower when cattle are outside on grass, as a primary source is the mixing of urine and dung. When outside the soil life can stabilise them before a lot of N is lost.

Slurry nearly alwasy have higher emissions then FYM. It is hard to store/spread FYM so badly to get emissions that are comparable with the best managed slurry systems.

There are systems that capture some of the nitrous gases from cattle shed air and even some systems that let the urine drain into a tank while the dung is scaped into a different tank, but I don't see them with UK scale cattle sheds ever giving lower emissions then outdoor cattle on foliage getting moved often with long recovery times for the foliage.

Ah yes, you see I completely agree with you.

However the men in Ivory towers have other ideas. The current trend here is to put the cow inside 24/7 then siphon off the effluent to put into a methane plant.

Perhaps use some of that 'green' energy to put into your telsa.

This is progress you see.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

with the good news today, that its going to cost more to import food from Europe, everything points to these higher prices staying here. But the cheapest stock are the xbred small calves out of grazing herds.

perhaps if you kept the heifer calves, to bull, not to sure what sire to use on them .............

met a chap who was CHARGING people to get their paddocks grazed/kept tidy, by his sheep, thought that was really neat.

our p/t chap keeps getting offered bits of land, he's always on the look out for more, the trouble is, he doesn't have enough sheep to graze it all, reckon he's got about 30 odd acres, for 49 sheep ....................... and you can't tell him anything. He will lose 8 acres, close to us, which we will be offered , because its not grazed down. He will wrongly blame us, as he is rather peed of with us, not so much work from us now, and another job he did, through us, will go as wll.

l think there are a lot of 'struggling' farmers, who would be better off, shrinking back, and getting a p/t or full time job, and turning the farm into more part time.

and p/t is the easiest way to amass stock/collateral, ready for chance to 'proper' farm.

our calf lady, came to help a bit, as we had been very helpful to them, when they were in the shite. Did a marvellous job, trained to my standards, she's now paid well, and figures strongly in our future plans, there will be another 40 odd AAx calves on the 16th, that's over the 100 off 1 farm, all same sire.

and some who have come to 'help' have been fecking useless.

but we ALL need a bit of help to get our farming careers going, several helped us, and 2 firms were really helpful, funnily enough, we are still dealing with them 30 yrs later !

Yes it's a weird beast to watch for a while.

Most farmers have too much area and too many animals get the best out of either one, but the idea of giving a bit up is too horrible to even consider. The idea of even getting rid of their worst animals sits about the same with most of them.
Weird.

It's weird because when you ask them about what success looks like and how much of everything they're gonna need to "be a success" in their own eyes, they have no answer. All they know is that where they are isn't quite enough.

It's like a cage they put themselves in, the cage has no door but they sit with their back to the opening anyway, and just complain

What stops people is one of the most interesting things in the world to me, I have tried all sorts of things and given any number of opportunities to help people out, but they are just happier complaining about being cash poor and feeling like everythings against them; it's all someone else's fault that they're where they are, and that it's like it is.

I know I shouldn't look but it just fascinates me so much... I mean if I pick a scab off the back of my hand I know there's blood underneath, but that won't stop me picking it