I’m confused?

[Henarar]

Over time what has been best for the USA has been best for UK and Western liberal democracies. As for New Zealand be interesting to see which of China or USA becomes the dominant partner. Have you followed the elections in the Solomon Islands. China is branching out and will be basing 'defensive' military bases around the Pacific Rim. New Zealand is a little country a long way from Europe. Apart from Sheep meat and Cricket is there any strategic benefit to Europe in supporting New Zealand if China flexes muscle. As a UK voter - the answer will be no.

Better NZ than Israel

 

[Hindsight]

Better NZ than Israel

Yes true. And for the Cricket.

 

[kiwi pom]

Over time what has been best for the USA has been best for UK and Western liberal democracies. As for New Zealand be interesting to see which of China or USA becomes the dominant partner. Have you followed the elections in the Solomon Islands. China is branching out and will be basing 'defensive' military bases around the Pacific Rim. New Zealand is a little country a long way from Europe. Apart from Sheep meat and Cricket is there any strategic benefit to Europe in supporting New Zealand if China flexes muscle. As a UK voter - the answer will be no.

I see no reason for China to fall out with us as long as our politicians don’t turn the country into an aircraft carrier for America. We remain nuclear free so no ships/subs or weapons are allowed currently, not that we could do much about it.
John Key had the right idea when he was PM , golf with Obama in the morning do a deal with China in the afternoon.

 

[robs1]

I see no reason for China to fall out with us as long as our politicians don’t turn the country into an aircraft carrier for America. We remain nuclear free so no ships/subs or weapons are allowed currently, not that we could do much about it.
John Key had the right idea when he was PM , golf with Obama in the morning do a deal with China in the afternoon.

With the way things are going at some point in time NZ may well have to make a choice as to which side you are on, until then you can carry on like Ireland and let others pay and die for the freedom of others.

 

[Hindsight]

I see no reason for China to fall out with us as long as our politicians don’t turn the country into an aircraft carrier for America. We remain nuclear free so no ships/subs or weapons are allowed currently, not that we could do much about it.
John Key had the right idea when he was PM , golf with Obama in the morning do a deal with China in the afternoon.

But NZ is a member of Five Eyes. To retain its position NZ cannot sit in the middle. Is it USA or China?

 

[kiwi pom]

But NZ is a member of Five Eyes. To retain its position NZ cannot sit in the middle. Is it USA or China?

Not really they could just leave five eyes and not sign any agreements with China.

With the way things are going at some point in time NZ may well have to make a choice as to which side you are on, until then you can carry on like Ireland and let others pay and die for the freedom of others.

No idea why we need to choose.
Maybe we’d choose China as they keep our economy going, I suppose we’d get bombed by the Yanks then.
All in the name of defence of course.
Better off being neutral

 

[robs1]

Not really they could just leave five eyes and not sign any agreements with China.

No idea why we need to choose.
Maybe we’d choose China as they keep our economy going, I suppose we’d get bombed by the Yanks then.
All in the name of defence of course.
Better off being neutral

Won't be neutral if china won any war, have a look at hong Kong, do as your told will be your life then.

 

[Henarar]

Yes true. And for the Cricket.

Better NZ than Ukraine

 

[Hindsight]

Not really they could just leave five eyes and not sign any agreements with China.

No idea why we need to choose.
Maybe we’d choose China as they keep our economy going, I suppose we’d get bombed by the Yanks then.
All in the name of defence of course.
Better off being neutral

Confirmation you are playing Devils Advocate with all your posts on TFF. Cheers.

 

[kiwi pom]

Confirmation you are playing Devils Advocate with all your posts on TFF. Cheers.

You said we had to take a side, I'm saying no we don't.
You are all caught up in this have to be on a side, have to fight warmongering. I'm waiting for the "if we don't fight in their backyard today, we'll be fighting in our own streets in a year" chestnut.

I do understand it, it's something we are programmed to believe from the time we are kids. We generally don't see it though, it's always the other side who are victims of propaganda.

Won't be neutral if china won any war, have a look at hong Kong, do as your told will be your life then.

Whereas Brits and Americans can do what they want, no rules there

 

[robs1]

You said we had to take a side, I'm saying no we don't.
You are all caught up in this have to be on a side, have to fight warmongering. I'm waiting for the "if we don't fight in their backyard today, we'll be fighting in our own streets in a year" chestnut.

I do understand it, it's something we are programmed to believe from the time we are kids. We generally don't see it though, it's always the other side who are victims of propaganda.

Whereas Brits and Americans can do what they want, no rules there

I think if you look at history you will find that's exactly what has happened many times, both world wars and even the latest in Ukraine. I don't disagree that the yanks look after their own interests quite often but that doesn't alter the fact that bullies need to be stood up to

 

[kiwi pom]

I think if you look at history you will find that's exactly what has happened many times, both world wars and even the latest in Ukraine. I don't disagree that the yanks look after their own interests quite often but that doesn't alter the fact that bullies need to be stood up to

And if America is or becomes the bully?
All about perspective, to some people born in other countries with different views and upbringings than us, America is the bully. To us they are the hero who controls the world with military might and enforces our views.

We need to work on peace not justifying wars or interfering with others.

 

[robs1]

And if America is or becomes the bully?
All about perspective, to some people born in other countries with different views and upbringings than us, America is the bully. To us they are the hero who controls the world with military might and enforces our views.

We need to work on peace not justifying wars or interfering with others.

Yes of course we need to work on peace,the trouble is there are lots of countries that want a fight, if you keep turning a blind eye to a bully they keep doing it, history shows us that.

 

[kiwi pom]

Yes of course we need to work on peace,the trouble is there are lots of countries that want a fight, if you keep turning a blind eye to a bully they keep doing it, history shows us that.

I agree I'm just saying it's a fine line between standing up to a bully and being the bully.
Perspective matters too, there are plenty of people on the planet who would have a good case in saying America is a bully.
Everything's complicated. History is usually written by the winners.

 

[robs1]

I agree I'm just saying it's a fine line between standing up to a bully and being the bully.
Perspective matters too, there are plenty of people on the planet who would have a good case in saying America is a bully.
Everything's complicated. History is usually written by the winners.

Certainly the USA have made decisions that were debatable at the time and in hindsight were pretty stupid but having been there they are a very insular nation and don't travel outside of the country very much, I guess they don't need to in many ways due to it's size. When you see the state of their leaders over the last few terms it's not surprising they have made poor decisions, still maybe the "real" power in the states needs idiots as figure heads so they can continue to run the place .

 

[FonterraFarmer]

Not really they could just leave five eyes and not sign any agreements with China.

No idea why we need to choose.
Maybe we’d choose China as they keep our economy going, I suppose we’d get bombed by the Yanks then.
All in the name of defence of course.
Better off being neutral

The one thing in dealing with China is the fact that you are playing with loaded dice and its not in our favour.
Equally as a Fonterra shareholder , just remind us just how much we have been shafted by the Chinese over the last 30 odd years, remember the Sanlu debacle!!!
That said, we still haven't been paid for the butter from the USSR back in the 80's.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

I agree I'm just saying it's a fine line between standing up to a bully and being the bully.
Perspective matters too, there are plenty of people on the planet who would have a good case in saying America is a bully.
Everything's complicated. History is usually written by the winners.

History isn't what happened ,its an interpretation of an individual or groups perception of what happened.
But then documented history tends to be more accurate than that dictated verbally from person to person or generation to generation.
History isn't written by winners, it's written by those who can best get financial advantage and it can quite easily be to suit their agenda.
Equally when perceived history can't be challenged based on evidence, fact or science, then the implications for those complicit need to be held to account.
History needs to be transparent and if necessary held to account, not embargoed for 70 years like what Helen Clark did.