GS4/Herbal Leys

[DairyNerd]

Got several fields that could do with reseeding here, got the farm last October. Interested in opinions on 2 questions:

1. I am thinking about some herbal leys on the drier ground, has anyone (or is anyone thinking of) put ground into GS4 or is it too much hassle and you just put the herbal ley in without the agro? If so how much of the farm and are you happy with it?

2. Was thinking of a break crop of stubble turnips or similar, either for Summer grazing then reseed in autumn OR graze early winter, grass reseed in Spring. Anyone got any opinions on which you would do? Cows calve late March to mid June.

 

[Sid]

Got several fields that could do with reseeding here, got the farm last October. Interested in opinions on 2 questions:

1. I am thinking about some herbal leys on the drier ground, has anyone (or is anyone thinking of) put ground into GS4 or is it too much hassle and you just put the herbal ley in without the agro? If so how much of the farm and are you happy with it?

2. Was thinking of a break crop of stubble turnips or similar, either for Summer grazing then reseed in autumn OR graze early winter, grass reseed in Spring. Anyone got any opinions on which you would do? Cows calve late March to mid June.

Haven't done GS4 as no money for it in organic CSS.

Second part, we use spring for drier cutting ground for spring undersown into peas and barley.
Damper grazing we use forage break crop then autumn reseed.
Calf AYR

 

[sidjon]

Got several fields that could do with reseeding here, got the farm last October. Interested in opinions on 2 questions:

1. I am thinking about some herbal leys on the drier ground, has anyone (or is anyone thinking of) put ground into GS4 or is it too much hassle and you just put the herbal ley in without the agro? If so how much of the farm and are you happy with it?

2. Was thinking of a break crop of stubble turnips or similar, either for Summer grazing then reseed in autumn OR graze early winter, grass reseed in Spring. Anyone got any opinions on which you would do? Cows calve late March to mid June.

We calf March until end of April and do grow summer crops which normally is forage rape, but have grown plantain with red and white clover as a annual crop, which we've planted in the autumn and grazed the following year, neighbours have planted GS4 and most of it failed, seem to be cocksfoot, plantain and chicory that survived for around 12 months.

 

[Jdunn55]

Got several fields that could do with reseeding here, got the farm last October. Interested in opinions on 2 questions:

1. I am thinking about some herbal leys on the drier ground, has anyone (or is anyone thinking of) put ground into GS4 or is it too much hassle and you just put the herbal ley in without the agro? If so how much of the farm and are you happy with it?

2. Was thinking of a break crop of stubble turnips or similar, either for Summer grazing then reseed in autumn OR graze early winter, grass reseed in Spring. Anyone got any opinions on which you would do? Cows calve late March to mid June.

Herbal leys require different management to ryegrass. If you're willing to look after them it's a no brainer, if you're just going to treat them like straight ryegrass and then complain in 12 months when there's only ryegrass left don't bother!

Gs4 pays £150/acre and you have to do very little to achieve that, if you're going to plant herbal leys it makes sense to apply for gs4.

The biggest things with herbal leys is to give them an adequate rest period between grazings and not to overgraze them.
Generally they will last 3-4 years with correct care. If you want anymore info feel free to ask.

 

[Sid]

Herbal leys require different management to ryegrass. If you're willing to look after them it's a no brainer, if you're just going to treat them like straight ryegrass and then complain in 12 months when there's only ryegrass left don't bother!

Gs4 pays £150/acre and you have to do very little to achieve that, if you're going to plant herbal leys it makes sense to apply for gs4.

The biggest things with herbal leys is to give them an adequate rest period between grazings and not to overgraze them.
Generally they will last 3-4 years with correct care. If you want anymore info feel free to ask.

Would you grow them without a sub?

 

[In the pit]

GS4: Legume and herb-rich swards

Find out about eligibility and requirements for the legume and herb-rich swards option.

www.gov.uk

Bit more to growing/managing it than collecting the money

 

[Jdunn55]

Would you grow them without a sub?

Yes, without a doubt.
However they would be a bit more streamlined, wouldn't bother with things like sheep's Burnet and sheep's parsley as I don't think it does a lot tbh, in my mixes I currently have 40% ryegrass, and then 5% each of Timothy, meadow fescue, cocksfoot and festololium, I would probably remove the meadow fescue and festololium and increase the Timothy and cocksfoot amounts, would also remove lucerne and have more red clover instead etc

The mix probably costs me an £10/acre in seed to get it to gs4 spec but hardly the end of the world

 

[Jdunn55]

GS4: Legume and herb-rich swards

Find out about eligibility and requirements for the legume and herb-rich swards option.

www.gov.uk

Bit more to growing/managing it than collecting the money

Which bit?

None of the spec is anything extra over what you would have to do if you want to grow a herbal ley anyway, may as well take the money too.

 

[Sid]

Yes, without a doubt.
However they would be a bit more streamlined, wouldn't bother with things like sheep's Burnet and sheep's parsley as I don't think it does a lot tbh, in my mixes I currently have 40% ryegrass, and then 5% each of Timothy, meadow fescue, cocksfoot and festololium, I would probably remove the meadow fescue and festololium and increase the Timothy and cocksfoot amounts, would also remove lucerne and have more red clover instead etc

The mix probably costs me an £10/acre in seed to get it to gs4 spec but hardly the end of the world

Don't get a penny here under CSS

 

[Jdunn55]

Don't get a penny here under CSS

Do they give you a reason why? Doesn't make sense to me, if you're growing gs4, you're growing gs4

 

[Sid]

Do they give you a reason why? Doesn't make sense to me, if you're growing gs4, you're growing gs4

Registered organic

 

[Scholsey]

Do they give you a reason why? Doesn't make sense to me, if you're growing gs4, you're growing gs4

RPA and natural England got burnt years ago with organic conversion payments, think they are very wary of upsetting the conv/organic balance since then. @Janet Hughes Defra could give a definite answer on is.

 

[In the pit]

Which bit?

None of the spec is anything extra over what you would have to do if you want to grow a herbal ley anyway, may as well take the money too.

The bit what says not to graze /cut between the two dates and the bit about having a minimum number of plant species at all times to the point of having to over seed

 

[Jdunn55]

The bit what says not to graze /cut between the two dates and the bit about having a minimum number of plant species at all times to the point of having to over seed

I don't understand your pointing?

Note it says 10% COVER not 10% red clover plants. Like you've said on here before even with white clover 20-30% cover probably only means 10-15% of the ley is plants because of clovers spread and the way it grows

If one of my herbal leys didn't have a minimum 10% cover of red clover I would be reseeding it anyway, 10% would be bitterly disappointing and not worth growing

35 days is hardly worth worrying about! Most people are currently on 40+ days! Even in may/early June people were on 35+ days to get the most out of what rain we had at the beginning of May

Unless you can 100% guarantee that you'll always have enough rain that you'll never need to go above a 30 day round then that's hardly a restriction as you would be doing it anyway.
Oh and if it happens to be 28 days because its been a good year and you haven't been short of moisture, they're never gonna know!

 

[In the pit]

• make sure the sward has an additional minimum 10% cover of other legumes, herbs and wildflowers (not counting white clover, creeping buttercup or injurious weeds)
• make sure that the sward contains at least 5 species of grass, 3 species of legume (including bird’s-foot trefoil) and 5 species of herb or
• These bits and how do you get the stuff growing in early spring without nitrogen
• If you bite it off in February it’s probaly June before it comes back
• 
  

 

[In the pit]

So you’re claiming the money but not sticking to the rules of growing gs4

 

[Jdunn55]

So you’re claiming the money but not sticking to the rules of growing gs4

I have never had to lie because I've always been on a 35 + day round at some point during the required period

However, I've attached some photos as to why, if I did have to lie, morally I wouldn't be remotely concerned. When they stop cheating and lying to us, and start leading by example, perhaps my moral compass might change

 

[DairyNerd]

As I calve late in the Spring/early summer I think I could cope with the lack of spring growth to an extent. Always used ryegrass and clover before but feel like there is some sense in trying this with the price of N and the payments available. Putting 4Ha of my farm in at £350/Ha plus the extra £30 per Ha from the intermediate SFI would be a payment of £2300 every year. Never been one to chase these schemes for the sake of it though as if you end up spending that in overseeding and buying in silage then what is the point. Its the potential loss of grass yield which is worrying me.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Do they give you a reason why? Doesn't make sense to me, if you're growing gs4, you're growing gs4

I don't grow gs4
I make my own mix up of many chicory red and white clovers and a mix of grasses , fantastic feed and grows like mad , have a look at the feed value of Chicory and it compliments the clover as it reduces bloat

 

[DairyNerd]

I don't grow gs4
I make my own mix up of many chicory red and white clovers and a mix of grasses , fantastic feed and grows like mad , have a look at the feed value of Chicory and it compliments the clover as it reduces bloat

I decided not to go for it, mainly for the reason you say and was thinking of trying something similar.